B.Moores Fresh Start Water Based Primer - Painting & Finish Work - Contractor Talk

B.Moores Fresh Start Water Based Primer

 
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Old 12-15-2007, 03:03 PM   #1
 
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B.Moores Fresh Start Water Based Primer


anyone used this over high gloss oil paint ? as a primer for the next coat which will be high gloss impervex..any issues at all ? (does it adhere like I have heard ? Thank You !
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Old 12-15-2007, 08:15 PM   #2
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Re: B.Moores Fresh Start Water Based Primer


Ah yes....well...no...er....
Ah yes in that the BM reps are (now) touting the latex Fresh Start can be used over everything from oil paints to tile and formica
No in that no contractor I know is willing to bet there rep on that latest bit of "you can say that..." marketing

"You can say that..." marketing is when the sales associate asks for a response to a legitimate objection by a customer
Like "where's your blankety blank I've always used?"
The answer is often really something like "it's too expensive and we don't really care that a few of you liked it" or
"...it was causing babies to grow three heads"...but you can't say things like that to a customer

So the sales manager, regional rep., marketing...someone comes up with the "You can say that...." it's now illegal...this product is better...we had failures with that product....
It's not actually true, but "you can say that..."
So no body is really lying, or telling the sales person to lie
Just that "you can say that..."

I personally feel that the "You can say that Fresh Start latex will work on oil paint, tile, etc..." is leftover fallout from the oil primer scare a year or two ago
It didn't come to pass, so I'm not sure how many remember/realize we were literally months away from having all oil primers pulled from the shelves
Fortunately, at the last minute (a month or two is really last minute for these types of things) the plan was scrapped -due to heavy, heavy, education of the lawmakers by paint manufacturers (and lots of cash and crying I'm sure) that the plan was unrealistic
(I think that's when the 'quarts only' plan came about which was also pretty silly)

I think BM scrambled for an alternative, tested the FS on oil/tile, said yeah it works fine, and penciled in a "works on..." in the TDS (which it's on some ans not on others) and on some labels (which it's on some and not on others)

Well...as these things take forever to get into the field...(and nobody would put a retraction in when the scare was over)....you've got sales reps and some cans saying "works on 'everything'"

This statement/wording is no longer on new cans or in the current TDS
If you see it, then they are from last year
The fact that it's not on there any more is pretty much Ben Moore's current answer to that

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Old 12-15-2007, 09:05 PM   #3
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Re: B.Moores Fresh Start Water Based Primer


Hmm.

It may hold... For a little while.

If this is a surface that will take a beating. Id say it would chip.

Oil primer is your best bet imo

Last edited by JCpresto; 12-15-2007 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 12-15-2007, 11:19 PM   #4
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Re: B.Moores Fresh Start Water Based Primer


There have been many acrylic primers. Top quality acrylic resins are known for their ability to bond well to most surfaces.

In the wallcovering business, there are many acrylic wallpaper prep coats that bond surprizingly well to tile, glass, and semi-gloss oil paint.

There is a paster bonding agent that I have used since the 80's named Weld-O-Bond that is an acrylic resin substance that will allow veneer/finish plaster to bond to tile, glass, etc.

Benny Moore for many years refused to make any of their products with 100% acrylic resins, they always use the cheaper vinyl latex resins. Unsatisfactory bonding occurred on many surfaces. California Products has been at the vanguard of acrylics for many decades and their acrylic paints are a testimony to the bonding ability of acrylics.

Ben Moore is FINALLY understanding the value of acrylics. Fresh Start is 100% acrylic.

Pesonally I would prepare the surface with the normal wash & sand. Then I would feel comfortable Frest Start acrylic primer would bond.
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Old 12-16-2007, 12:06 AM   #5
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Re: B.Moores Fresh Start Water Based Primer


If the surface was sanded well, and tacked, I'd be confident applying Fresh Start over it. Let it dry a day or two before recoating though.
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Old 12-16-2007, 07:51 AM   #6
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Re: B.Moores Fresh Start Water Based Primer


If the surface was sanded well, and tacked, I'd be confident applying Fresh Start over it. Let it dry a day or two before recoating though.

Also it takes 30 days to fully bond
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Old 12-16-2007, 08:15 AM   #7
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Re: B.Moores Fresh Start Water Based Primer


Quote:
Originally Posted by daArch View Post
Pesonally I would prepare the surface with the normal wash & sand. Then I would feel comfortable Frest Start acrylic primer would bond.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProWallGuy View Post
If the surface was sanded well, and tacked, I'd be confident applying Fresh Start (latex) over it
So you guys haven't done it yet either?
It's good stuff, but...
I just...can't...do...it....

It just seems so wrong
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Old 12-16-2007, 08:56 AM   #8
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Re: B.Moores Fresh Start Water Based Primer


There are a million ways to prep something. It's just oil primer has always seemed like a fail-safe. Supposedly some of these latex primers are very good at sticking now - so they say. I've had some projects where I washed the surface with TSP in a gallon of hot water - rinsed - and then primed with latex - and worked great. Or you could wipe the surface down with wilbond liquid surface prep - which sort of negates the purpose of zero VOC's. And you could sand - tack - or wipe down with denatured alcohol, which really cleans well. Over the years - I have found that it is a slight misnomer to think in terms of adhesion only - I think the fact that the oil primer is sort of an enamel - and has this tremendous surface strength is what really accounts for it's toughness - where as something like 100% acrylic which may stick like mad - doesn't posess much surface strength and is rubbery - I know they can alter the resins slight for a harder surface - but all these paint companies seem to be on the fence of enamel toughness vs. flexibility
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:58 PM   #9
 
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Re: B.Moores Fresh Start Water Based Primer


well,I must say you have all scared me into using a coat of xim primer,thanks for the tips !
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Old 12-17-2007, 10:55 AM   #10
 
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Re: B.Moores Fresh Start Water Based Primer


Plain Painter is on the right track. Water based primers are not as hard as oil based ones generally. It takes a long time for a water based primer to fully cure. Some painters confuse a paint being dry to touch with cured. Allow a week or more before subjecting a water based paint or primer to any wear or abuse. For painterofeveryt, UMA is the water based version of XIM's 400W. It has been around several years and been proven to work for an application like yours.

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