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Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand

 
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Old 06-01-2020, 02:46 PM   #1
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Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


Anyone find problems with crappy adhesion of primer to fully set and dried hot-mud?

In this case, my primer is Behr Multi-Surface stainblocking primer and sealer - not a primer I've used much, but it was a mistint bargain-bucket from Depot. I believe it should be overkill, and it has stuck OK on the same project in similar settings, until just the other day. What happened? Well, in test-fitting a heavy countertop, I bumped a wall I'd primed some hours before, that morning, and saw that the primer had lifted in that bumped area - but without showing the substrate. Prodding it led to peeling, and then...more peeling.
I never found a tight edge after pulling off a few square inches. I stopped and left it alone, hoping that maybe full adhesion would take a bit longer for some reason.

Now days later, the same thing happens. I could (and probably will have to) peel off the whole wall.

The film peels off cleanly, with the underside of the peeled paint looking just slightly powdery. But I'd brush-vacuumed the entire wall before priming, so it wasn't just dust interfering. And it was dry-dry, not just set - else I'd never have been able to mesh-sand without clogging a pile of sandpaper.

I did sand finer than I might previously have, since I didn't have a grit between 80 and 240 - so I'm wondering if that alone might have been it, but that doesn't seem right, either. I mean, if I wanted to prime formica or glass with this or any primer, fine-sanding would be part of my prep ANYWAY.

Ideas?
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Old 06-01-2020, 03:34 PM   #2
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


Addendum: I just called Behr's support line. While I've got some lingering doubt about the rep (she didn't know what 'hot mud' or 'setting compound' was until she'd looked it up ) she did call back with information that while my 'bargain' primer is OK for use on drywall in general - presumably meaning for topping/general-purpose mud - it's not OK for hot mud. She said their only recommendation for priming directly to hot-mud is something I've never used: Kilz Klear.

Still begs the question in my mind why this didn't happen across the room when I went through the same process a few weeks ago, even power-sanding the recently-applied primer to make sure I'd get good bite by more hot-mud in some areas where the same primer had revealed defects.

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Old 06-01-2020, 03:35 PM   #3
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


There is a problem there somewhere. Contamination or other ? Usually I would say to use Zinnser Cover Stain oil based primer. But you're so far into an unknown problem I would use BIN Shellac primer 2 coats.

I can't recall if BIN can be sanded with #220 or if you can top coat it with latex. However if you apply a coat of Zinnser Cover Stain oil based over the shellac primer it will sand and accept latex.

I get many difficult jobs...this is what I would do so no call backs. And btw, always use oil based primer for repairs.
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Old 06-01-2020, 06:46 PM   #4
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


Not unusual, setting compounds do not play well with a lot of topcoats. I use SW Pro Block after a 24 hour set period. Anything sooner and you’re.....

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Old 06-01-2020, 07:02 PM   #5
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


I almost always use a general purpose for my top coat. Rarely have any trouble.

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Old 06-01-2020, 07:26 PM   #6
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


Use a sealer or primer sealer. Obviously the Behr isn't actually a sealer, no matter what it says.

I use a lot of zinnser products for this. If it says it's a sealer, it's a sealer.
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Old 06-01-2020, 07:31 PM   #7
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


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Originally Posted by We Fix Houses View Post

I can't recall if BIN can be sanded with #220 or if you can top coat it with latex. However if you apply a coat of Zinnser Cover Stain oil based over the shellac primer it will sand and accept latex.
You can send shellac, but it will gum the paper or screen.

You can put latex right over shellac. Traditional lacquer is a problem, because lacquer thinner dissolves shellac.
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Old 06-01-2020, 08:15 PM   #8
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


Thanks, all. I believe before today's end I will test a swath with some oil primer-sealer (it's says so on the label!) that I happen to have around, and see how well it has stuck come tomorrow AM.

I used to enjoy going out for materials pre-Covid-19, but now I'm finding it's a big tax on some subconscious part of my brain, otherwise I'd head out this evening for something that will work for sure.
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Old 06-01-2020, 10:59 PM   #9
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


Quote:
Originally Posted by 808Pants View Post
Anyone find problems with crappy adhesion of primer to fully set and dried hot-mud?

In this case, my primer is Behr Multi-Surface stainblocking primer and sealer - not a primer I've used much, but it was a mistint bargain-bucket from Depot. I believe it should be overkill, and it has stuck OK on the same project in similar settings, until just the other day. What happened? Well, in test-fitting a heavy countertop, I bumped a wall I'd primed some hours before, that morning, and saw that the primer had lifted in that bumped area - but without showing the substrate. Prodding it led to peeling, and then...more peeling.
I never found a tight edge after pulling off a few square inches. I stopped and left it alone, hoping that maybe full adhesion would take a bit longer for some reason.

Now days later, the same thing happens. I could (and probably will have to) peel off the whole wall.

The film peels off cleanly, with the underside of the peeled paint looking just slightly powdery. But I'd brush-vacuumed the entire wall before priming, so it wasn't just dust interfering. And it was dry-dry, not just set - else I'd never have been able to mesh-sand without clogging a pile of sandpaper.

I did sand finer than I might previously have, since I didn't have a grit between 80 and 240 - so I'm wondering if that alone might have been it, but that doesn't seem right, either. I mean, if I wanted to prime formica or glass with this or any primer, fine-sanding would be part of my prep ANYWAY.

Ideas?
I've never used that product. But, I do know that to much tint can affect a primers performance.
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Old 06-04-2020, 12:14 PM   #10
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


You had me at "Behr".
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Old 06-04-2020, 01:49 PM   #11
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


hey, it was a bargain!... (actually, even if I'd spent the time to look beyond the label's mention that it's fine for use as a drywall primer, I'd still never have found anything to say it's not OK on hot-mud - and probably rightly so, because they can't comment on every conceivable substrate, right?)

But it does make me wonder: I'm not the only guy who uses hot-mud as a texture medium, right? This was 45-min set which doesn't give me much working-time, but the 90 would let me texture a lot of surface before setting, and definitely speed up the process. So what would you prime with after that application?

I decided to change my job sequence a bit and bring up some other walls in the area to do all at the same time (not often possible in my jumbled space), so after stripping down that wall and not using anything finer than 80-grit - and still disbelieving how bad the adhesion was - I reprimed a square foot with the same primer. Again, thoroughly vacuumed and of course more than fully-dried mud, since it'd been a couple of weeks. Same deal. I peeled that square foot off almost completely, and in one sheet. Slight powdery look to the underside of the peeled skin. I'd like to know what it is about hot-mud that's so hard to adhere to.

Next contestant is Bullseye2, which the rep said would work fine (and will take back if it doesn't, whether he likes it or not).
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Old 06-04-2020, 02:40 PM   #12
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


You can’t prime wet hot mud, you can only coat over it with a topcoat of mud. It all needs to be thoroughly dry before primer. I’ve had hot mud take half a week to dry before. I would have never thought of priming over it.
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Old 06-04-2020, 03:43 PM   #13
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


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You canít prime wet hot mud, you can only coat over it with a topcoat of mud. It all needs to be thoroughly dry before primer. Iíve had hot mud take half a week to dry before. I would have never thought of priming over it.
Drying isn't a long process here in Honolulu when it's 80F with a breeze or fan running. As you say, I wouldn't dream of priming before it's all convincingly & completely not just hard, but DRY - but that can be "after lunch" in texture applications. Anyway, lack of dry-time has not been my issue in this thread.
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:57 PM   #14
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


Hot mud doesn't have glue in it.
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:59 PM   #15
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


FYI, most primers perform poorly on drywall, they don't penetrate enough to get good adhesion.
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Old 06-04-2020, 07:08 PM   #16
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


Very interesting as i just had an similar issues yesterday. I usually use the 20 minute or 90 minute easy sand. My goal is to patch / repair in the morning and be sanding / priming by late afternoon, then ready to paint the next day.

Let me be clear this is not so much for drywall work but simple / small repairs etc.

I usually prime with SW latex Multipurpose primer, from time to time i have had an issue or two, yesterday we had the primer peel off the patch, it was to the point i had to re-skim the area. The rest of the room was just fine where we made other repairs.

I am careful to make sure all areas get vacuumed before priming.

I sometimes wonder if it is a humidity issue or some other factor.
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Old 06-04-2020, 07:19 PM   #17
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


No joke, if it says it's a primer, it probably is a bad drywall /patch primer. They may perform comparable or worse than some paints.
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Old 06-04-2020, 07:30 PM   #18
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


Sounds like there was still moisture within, even if it looked dry. This is doubly so if you were using a heat gun to speed it up.
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:54 AM   #19
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


Quote:
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FYI, most primers perform poorly on drywall, they don't penetrate enough to get good adhesion.
My finishers have always used all purpose for texture.
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Old 06-06-2020, 08:42 AM   #20
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Re: Awful Primer Adhesion To Easy-Sand


If your going to use box store use Glidden gripper. As I’ve stated before it takes a front end loader to pull it off. Unless there’s an underlying issue. Fact it’s the only primer we use.

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