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Question For The Pool Guys?

 
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Old 11-19-2006, 08:44 AM   #1
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Question For The Pool Guys?


Ok...I am progressing with the new home plans, and I am playing with the idea of an indoor pool.....my plan currently has a room that will be a patio room / place for the hot tub / fitness equipment...and yep, the hot tub is all I care about. The dimensions will be 15 by 24, expandable another 10 feet or so in width, open to the patio and deck, out of view of the actual living areas....I will post real plans when I get that far in Punch Pro.

Now....we are doing steel frame instead of ICF's, and I have always liked the idea of a fiberglass pool shell.....so guys...what are the pros / cons of doing this? Can the shell be insulated? Our home wiould be on a slight rise, I can drain the area the pool will be in without a lot of problem to negate floating out of the ground...so can the fiberglass be "concreted in" to the apron?

I have the expertise and ability to do a poured in place pool....and this is still on my list...doing it in ICF's and floating and sealing it. My soil type is sand...and I mean as fine as beach sand, but will compact with moisture.

So what is the opinion? I love a pool, and the question s whether I add another 10 feet of width to the patio room and incorporate the pool, catch solar heating off the roof of the house, or do I put the pool in a traditional spot, and only get to use it 5 months of the year?

As an add.....the pool room will need how much ventilation? Air exchange? What can I realistically expect for indoor humidity?
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Old 11-19-2006, 07:12 PM   #2
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Re: Question For The Pool Guys?


Many years ago I owned a pool business. Sold it to its manager. Enclosed one fiberglass pool that had cracked and been repaired by the 'vette repairman.

Humidity is a big issue. Build with materials that won't be bothered by constant moisture. You will get mildew unless you use materials that won't support it.

The indoor pool at my house has held up well since we constructed it in 1985. I used a vinyl liner pool in mine. My reasoning at the time was that the vinyl would be easier to maintain (less chemicals to combat the ph leaching from the concrete/plaster). I thought the liner would last substantially longer indoors than out. Wrong. My second liner is about worn out. No leaks yet, though it is badly bleached. Cost wasn't an issue, I've constructed gunnite pools as well as the vinyl ones.

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Old 11-19-2006, 07:22 PM   #3
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Re: Question For The Pool Guys?


We have had one fiberglass pool and I wouldn't even think of going back there. It WAS exterior but what a PITA!
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Old 11-19-2006, 09:13 PM   #4
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Re: Question For The Pool Guys?


So that takes me to poured in place concrete, not gunite....so anyone given any thought to acid staining the concrete after toweling and then sealing with the clear sealer to beat having to paint year after year? Only way I am doing a pool is to find a least maintenance expense possible. I can pour a lot of concrete, and ise foam board behind is for an insulation break for the price of a fiberglass shell....
\

Ever noticed how pool companies you cann say we don't sell shells to individuals....I have called several and the call usually goes something like this. " I am a contractor, I am going install it myself"...there immediate answer is "you can't do that, it is very difficult, only we are qualified, yada yada yada, you must have experience...yada yada yada..." So I say something like " I am going to do this, install it myself, I believe I can folllow the excavation prints, I know the circulation system, yada yada yada....." and they say there is no warantee or gaurantee if we don't do it.....thats ok dude...lets try this one last time. I am buying a shell...if you want to make a sale to me, quote your best price, if not KMA and I will find someone else who wants to make a little selling me what I want, sorry you don't get to put it in. I have had 4 companies quote me fiberglass shells with all equipment for less then 6k...just like buying HVAC equipment...someone will make you a deal. Abd yes guys, I have a HVAC guy do our work.
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Old 11-19-2006, 10:41 PM   #5
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Re: Question For The Pool Guys?


a sealer for submersed application? thats a new one to me.
several epoxy glazes have "popped" up over the years.
monolithic pour? <- very strong if done right...
typically concrete is waterproofed by plaster/marcite?

why kill your self .. go steel wall , liner , vermiculite bottom
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Old 11-20-2006, 06:29 AM   #6
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Re: Question For The Pool Guys?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CPSpool View Post
a sealer for submersed application? thats a new one to me.
several epoxy glazes have "popped" up over the years.
monolithic pour? <- very strong if done right...
typically concrete is waterproofed by plaster/marcite?

why kill your self .. go steel wall , liner , vermiculite bottom
ray
Curiosity rules. Since you are a bona fida pool guy, and I am cheaper then cheap, what would the materials cost, including the pumps, filters, and tech info for a simple 16 X 28 or so pool, shallow to diving depth? I see kits on E-Bay for liver pools for 5k range....

Now here is my thinking about poured in place: Strength, appearance, no liner to replace, and within my technical skill level. I have never seen the steel/liner inmstall done before.

The fiberglass shell is attractive since I don't have the form work...just dig the hole, and set up lines, brace, and fill with water while backfilling wet sand. (seen this one done before) very carefully.....if you make a mistake, pull it and do it over. Pool shells are not really that high...large ones for 6K but the shipping is a killer, and then you have to rent a crane for the install.
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Old 11-20-2006, 07:14 PM   #7
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Re: Question For The Pool Guys?


On a concrete pool it's the plaster that holds the water in, not the concrete. The concrete holds the plaster in place.

Concrete is by nature a seive. The pool guys use a water-proof plaster.

Your pour must be monolithic, no corners, or you will get cracks through the plaster.

The plaster must be monolithic. You can't do this yourself and keep the edges wet.

The pool guys are correct. You probably can't do this yourself. You need a gunnite machine and experienced operators.

The vinyl you can do yourself. Behind the liner is a wall, steel, fiberglass, or cmu. and a floor, generally sand, sometimes vermiculite, sometimes a combination of the two.

A concrete/plaster pool does not get painted. That's oooooooollllllllllllddddddd school. You clean it with acid when it needs it, when the plaster is getting rough, you sandblast and re-plaster. The plaster lasts longer than the vinyl, the plaster is more expensive to replace

The vinyl is subject to vandalism and stupidity. One pool we did the owner cut his cover with a sharp knife against the liner, all the way around. Brand new pool and had to replace the liner. One pool the kids were using a pipe to pole-vault over the pool by putting the pipe into the pool. Trashed another liner.
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Old 11-20-2006, 08:29 PM   #8
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Re: Question For The Pool Guys?


Quote:
Originally Posted by joasis View Post
\

Ever noticed how pool companies you cann say we don't sell shells to individuals....I have called several and the call usually goes something like this. " I am a contractor, I am going install it myself"...there immediate answer is "you can't do that, it is very difficult, only we are qualified, yada yada yada, you must have experience...yada yada yada..." So I say something like " I am going to do this, install it myself, I believe I can folllow the excavation prints, I know the circulation system, yada yada yada....." and they say there is no warantee or gaurantee if we don't do it.....thats ok dude...lets try this one last time. I am buying a shell...if you want to make a sale to me, quote your best price, if not KMA and I will find someone else who wants to make a little selling me what I want, sorry you don't get to put it in. I have had 4 companies quote me fiberglass shells with all equipment for less then 6k...just like buying HVAC equipment...someone will make you a deal. Abd yes guys, I have a HVAC guy do our work.

Joasis, I put in my own vinyl liner this summer, 16X32 "sport pool" (shallow on the ends, deep in the middle). Good for swimming but diving is out. I bought my kit on line but did my homework before hand and "customized" the pool technicals instead of getting what they give, ex...extra jets, skimmer, larger filter, etc. The one thing that I would HIGHLY recommend is a salt system. They run about $800-$1000 but they are WELL worth it. No chlorine to mess with. Won't fade out the liner or burn your eyeballs.
As for your post above here's what I ran into. I put in a vermiculite/cement base. There is one company, Schundler, that deals with vermiculite so I called them and they gave me the names of some pool distributors in my area. You have to use a finer grade vermiculite in the mix and all the pool distributors were like..."Sorry we only sell to pool builders". I ended up saying I was using the vermiculite to break up some nasty clay soil I had and one company said "OK, but only bring cash".
Installing a liner is a piece of cake. My wife and I did it in about an hour. Keep a shop vac running as it is filling and make your cut outs as the water level rises. Except for somebody doing dumb things as posted a liner would be easy to maintain if the pool is indoors.
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Old 11-21-2006, 06:46 AM   #9
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Re: Question For The Pool Guys?


Now here is a dumb thought guys...but is there any reason a liner wouldn't or couldn't be used in ICF block form? I am thinking now, making the pool shape out of ICF's..sand bottom over rigid styrofoam (to break the heat transfer) and then go. I hate cold water, anything under 88 degrees is cold to me, and by using ICF's, I can break the heat sink effect of the ground.

So tossing that idea out there, is there any reason it won't owrk? It would beat pool plastering, although we have additives in concrete that make it watertight...we do it with underground storm cellars and I have seen poured in place pools that were never plastered.....but they probably did leak.
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Old 11-21-2006, 06:54 AM   #10
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Re: Question For The Pool Guys?


After I typed this, I still was thinking with all the advances in fiberglass, what is the major problem with a shell pool. You guys siad avoid and don't but not why? I see more and more companies advertising them, and with the gel coat type finish a thing of the past, and the granite like surface looking perfect (what we have seen in hot tubs), what are the issues?
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Old 11-21-2006, 09:21 PM   #11
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Re: Question For The Pool Guys?


do you want a box of water or a swiming pool.. just kidding

block wall? where lateral support coming from when you back fill/ fill pool or drain it.

given your skill level i think steel wall liner is best bet for you. & all you need is a 9/16" socket & a trowel (joke gunite boys wil appreciate the humor)

and THANK GOD distributers protect their dealers by not selling to public..
im hungry sorry to be brief id be happy to answer what i can
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Old 11-21-2006, 09:23 PM   #12
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Re: Question For The Pool Guys?


my 18X36 roman end sport pool deeper end in middle two shallow ends
water fall ended costing me 4500 plus fill water
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Old 11-21-2006, 09:37 PM   #13
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Re: Question For The Pool Guys?


Can't really answer about the newer glass, just make sure the glass is backed up by solid earth. As for the ICF's, they should work fine BUT, any unevenness, dents, etc will transfer to the liner.

The block wall vinyls had a foam fabric layer installed prior to installing the viny. On the fiberglass and steel panels we duct taped all seams and fasteners to smooth them out, kind of like putting drywall tape on sheetrock seams and gaps.
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Old 11-21-2006, 09:52 PM   #14
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Re: Question For The Pool Guys?


what is ICF???

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Old 11-22-2006, 07:04 AM   #15
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Re: Question For The Pool Guys?


ICF = insulated concrete form...kinda like a contractor's lego blocks. There are pictures in the reward wall gallery showing pools build from ICF's with no liners...at least I am guessing, but maybe they do.

The have a base R factor of 30 or so, depending on density, but have an E Star rating of R 40 - 50...neat concept, but there are still issues to work out...I suppose a liner would last years and years in an indoor environment, huh? (barring mechanical failures, like punctures, etc)
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Old 11-24-2006, 03:29 AM   #16
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Re: Question For The Pool Guys?


I thought liners would last for years and years in an indoor environment but I was wrong. You're still looking at 10-15.

In an outdoor pool the corners above the water line tend to get brittle and crack. Not so on the indoor pool because of the sun protection. The chlorine continues to degrade the indoor liner, bleaching off the color and making the liner stiff and brittle.

The aged glass pools I've seen have the same bleaching as the vinyls, though not as much.

The aged plaster pools tend to get etched plaster, until it gets so rough it needs to be refinished.

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