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Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition

 
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Old 01-02-2015, 11:44 AM   #41
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


As some of you know, I'm just getting into tile. But my tile contractor has been doing tile for about 30yrs.

On the last bath we did, I installed the CBB. He requested Durock installed on top of the flange, not over it. Meaning the CBB stayed in constant contact with the studs. I believe he ran the tile a little below the CBB and filled the gap behind the tile with thinset and finished the joint between the tile and tub with caulk. He also covered the CBB with RedGard (waterproofing).
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Old 01-02-2015, 11:59 AM   #42
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


Sealing the joint pre tile is a must even if you dont do it later no matter what tile or grout is installed. Wall board acts like a rain screen during long showers when cementious grout or unsealed tile is used. That water gets trapped by silicone at the rims and bleeds out in the front apron. So it can be argue that in this case you dont even finish caulk. If you use an impervious tile and impervious grout you wont get the rainscreen effect but can still get a hairline crack from wind and live loads.

I silicone then embed fabric with aqua defense to the bottom so it has a slight lap onto the tub. John Byrne recommends tucking into a gap on inside corners and the bottom to create a flex pocket for silicone but I dont do it.

Now most 5x7 baths around will require furring on at least one wall to get even with tub hop. Assuming its an alcove. The room might be 60 1/2" wide so I slide the tub tight to the wall opposite the plumbing. This allows some extra space to clear waste stack hubs and carved up studs.
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Old 01-02-2015, 04:30 PM   #43
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


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Did you install the flange of the tub level or on a slight angle?

I had this exact argument with Angus a year or two ago. Caulking the seam between the tub and tile will cause any water that permeates the tile to damn up on the tile flange. My logical solution was to leave weep holes in the corners for any moisture to drain out of.

Angus's angle was that it's more important to caulk the void to avoid wicking moisture behind the tile...but I still think sealing that entire space goes against everything we talk about in shower waterproofing.
Only ever dealt with tubs that had a flange installed on them. And of course the tub was installed level.

Yes, it's an interesting debate for sure. Definitely want to try Urethane grout though seeing as that should help for sure.

I'm also intrigued by the moisture wicking idea. If you've completely waterproofed behind the tile with Kerdi, Wedi, Aqua-D or similar roll on membrane, what's water wicking too and molding on?

Rob, you've got good experience and thoughts on this, how is water getting to any framing if it's a waterproofed assembly?
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Old 01-02-2015, 04:56 PM   #44
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


What's our consensus on water getting through an impervious tile and an epoxy or urethane grout. Other than the possible. corner grout cracking, or other defects.
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Old 01-02-2015, 06:07 PM   #45
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


Another thing I wont do is use grout joints smaller than 1/8". I dont think you can adequatley fill smaller joints and will let water in.
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Old 01-02-2015, 06:30 PM   #46
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


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Slosol: I had considered shimming the whole stud in the past, but of course that means you would end up shimming an entire wall assembly if one of the tub walls is common with the rest of the bathroom. I decided that was overly labor intensive when I considered it.
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99 times out of 100 we are shimming walls out anyway to remove the waves,crowns,bows,humps,bumps and other adjectives that make the walls less than flat.

Why not set yourself apart from the others and shim the walls. Think of all the benefits....

1. You have a flat wall that works great and requires less labor when installing tile to ensure you have adequate mortar and coverage.

2. Sometimes you can sell the homeowner on the fact that you can now build a deeper custom recessed niche! Sometimes a 1/4" matters in this game

3. No problem installing CBU over the tub flange.

We always shim the walls out, drop the board over the flange and set it on top of a 1/8" Wedge. Remove the wedge seal with silicone. Tile Over a nice flat wall
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Old 01-02-2015, 07:25 PM   #47
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


I put a horizontal metal flashing between tub flange and wall studs. Use thick bead of wedi adhesive against tub flange and flashing then drop cbd into it. Redgard wall and fill gap at bottom with more wedi adhesive. I don't care if it's more expensive. Cheap insurance IMO
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Old 01-02-2015, 07:41 PM   #48
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


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99 times out of 100 we are shimming walls out anyway to remove the waves,crowns,bows,humps,bumps and other adjectives that make the walls less than flat.

Why not set yourself apart from the others and shim the walls. Think of all the benefits....

1. You have a flat wall that works great and requires less labor when installing tile to ensure you have adequate mortar and coverage.

2. Sometimes you can sell the homeowner on the fact that you can now build a deeper custom recessed niche! Sometimes a 1/4" matters in this game

3. No problem installing CBU over the tub flange.

We always shim the walls out, drop the board over the flange and set it on top of a 1/8" Wedge. Remove the wedge seal with silicone. Tile Over a nice flat wall
We shim the walls to plumb and uniform but no need to shim every one just be able to overlap the tub.

I typically have 4"-4.5" deep niches and if we are installing a capital trim I can get it to nearly 5" deep.

It would also depend on the tub. Some tubs have a very thin rim eating up an inch with tile and backer leaves little rim left.

I like the idea Olzo has with the flashing. Is it similar to the redi pan flashing?
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Old 01-02-2015, 07:58 PM   #49
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


I always put a pre-slope under the tub and install a membrane and clamping drain down there, then set the tub on top of this. I drill weep holes through the flange around the tub, so the water flowing down can get out of there, flow down below onto the pre-slope and into the drain.

I also install a humidifier down there under the tub on the same circuit as the bath light. This will help to eliminate any moisture down there.
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Old 01-02-2015, 09:16 PM   #50
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


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I always put a pre-slope under the tub and install a membrane and clamping drain down there, then set the tub on top of this. I drill weep holes through the flange around the tub, so the water flowing down can get out of there, flow down below onto the pre-slope and into the drain.

I also install a humidifier down there under the tub on the same circuit as the bath light. This will help to eliminate any moisture down there.
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Old 01-02-2015, 09:25 PM   #51
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


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I always put a pre-slope under the tub and install a membrane and clamping drain down there, then set the tub on top of this. I drill weep holes through the flange around the tub, so the water flowing down can get out of there, flow down below onto the pre-slope and into the drain.

I also install a humidifier down there under the tub on the same circuit as the bath light. This will help to eliminate any moisture down there.
A humidifier should keep it bone dry.

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Old 01-02-2015, 09:29 PM   #52
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


sorry, I meant a DE-humidifier.
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Old 01-02-2015, 09:37 PM   #53
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


I recently installed a fast and dirty shower in a basement on a receptor. I left the wet wall exposed, so I can see if there are any leaks there. It would be nice to build one in the middle of a room and leave all sides unfinished.

I haven't looked on the wet wall to see if any water wants to come out there. I did grout with Bostik's Tru Color urethane. And I used Densshield tilebacker and used the Latricrete waterproofer on the joints. I suppose if any water goes down the wet wall, it will have to be blocked at the caulked joint, then back up above the flange behind the backerboard, then drop on the floor below in order for me to see it. That would take a lot of water.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:11 PM   #54
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


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Tubs should be installed level.

It boils down to how much water do you expect to get behind the tile versus wicking up? Seems that wicking is a much more likely scenario, IMO?

Bath time brings plenty of splashing and rough waters in a tub. And when taking a shower, water hits the rim of the tub nearly constantly. This will drive water up into that area and it will wick and cause mold, mildew and rot.

Always caulk the transition to seal the area. Just doesn't make sense to try and prevent something that is most likely not a threat versus something that we know is. Holes in the corners is just a shot in the dark feel good precaution that may or may not perform as intended. Just doesn't make sense to me to leave any opening to allow water to get up into to possibly cause damage or fungal growth. Organics and water will make there way into the weep holes.
If we expect such a little amount of water behind the tile why do we waterproof behind the tile in the first place?

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Only ever dealt with tubs that had a flange installed on them. And of course the tub was installed level.

Yes, it's an interesting debate for sure. Definitely want to try Urethane grout though seeing as that should help for sure.

I'm also intrigued by the moisture wicking idea. If you've completely waterproofed behind the tile with Kerdi, Wedi, Aqua-D or similar roll on membrane, what's water wicking too and molding on?

Rob, you've got good experience and thoughts on this, how is water getting to any framing if it's a waterproofed assembly?
My thought was that maybe there was a slight slope towards the valve side causing the water to pool there, but I digress.

Yeah I'm at a mental cross roads about which is better.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:20 PM   #55
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


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I suppose if any water goes down the wet wall, it will have to be blocked at the caulked joint, then back up above the flange behind the backerboard, then drop on the floor below in order for me to see it. That would take a lot of water.
You'd be surprised how much water comes through a small break in a grout joint. It doesn't need to run too long either.I know first hand from our first house before I remodeled the shower.

I believe the Schluter transitions solves the problem in a shower by leaving an open joint for any water trapped behind the tile to drain. But with a tub you better be sure you do a good job grouting and waterproofing.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:23 PM   #56
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


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installing a capital trim I can get it to nearly 5" deep.

It would also depend on the tub. Some tubs have a very thin rim eating up an inch with tile and backer leaves little rim left.

I like the idea Olzo has with the flashing. Is it similar to the redi pan flashing?
Capital - Tile Shop?

I agree with the thin rim can do you in and don't offer much real estate
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:29 PM   #57
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


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Is it similar to the redi pan flashing?

Don't anything about tile ready flashing. I use small coil stock or you could cut a J channel to a flat piece. The purpose of the flashing is keep the wedi adhesive or silicone from falling into the stud space as the cbd is installed. Also, after applying the sealant, you can reach behind the flashing and push it to bed the sealant against the tub flange
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Old 01-02-2015, 11:07 PM   #58
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


I recaulked a tub and shower today and I was thinking about that fr%$%$ transition. Once again, water was trapped behind the horizontal caulked joints (cementateous grout on 4x4's above) causing mildew. Same old, same old.
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Old 01-02-2015, 11:21 PM   #59
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Re: Tile Backer/tub Flange Transition


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I recaulked a tub and shower today and I was thinking about that fr%$%$ transition. Once again, water was trapped behind the horizontal caulked joints (cementateous grout on 4x4's above) causing mildew. Same old, same old.
Rake the joint clean, do not rechaulk. Needs to drain, same as a mud pan, water in water out. If the install was waterproofed properly not sure where the water would wicked to or into what, should be nothing but waterproofing in that area.

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Old 01-02-2015, 11:45 PM   #60
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Rake the joint clean, do not rechaulk. Needs to drain, same as a mud pan, water in water out. If the install was waterproofed properly not sure where the water would wicked to or into what, should be nothing but waterproofing in that area.

Tom
It's your basic old-school tile installation (from the 70's, I think), with a poorly sloped floor, but that's another story. Grout is permeable and water gets in, migrates down looking for a place to exit. Sure, it goes through the floor grout, eventually, to the drain weeps, but that's a slow ride. These folks have been gone for a week and some water was still sitting behind that caulk. So yes, I let it dry out, etc . For the master shower, which was worse, I decided to grind out the horizontal grout/caulk joint (Fein) and just regrout the horizontal transition. The guest bath tub, on the other hand, will all get caulked.

[BTW, did you know Kwikseal makes "arctic white" (i.e. ice colored) grout repair in a hand squeeze tube - I couldn't resist picking up a tube when I saw it.]

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