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Old 01-13-2013, 09:58 PM   #101
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Re: Ikea Cabinets


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In my experience plywood is much more impact resistant than MDF or particleboard which is pretty important on a euro style frame vs. a solid wood face frame. I also won't use MDF in any wet locations. Particle board and plywood will both be damaged by moisture but MDF is much worse. Kitchen have a lot of leak potential.

I don't like the plastic feet(especially with a heavy counter top) but I do like that you can just drop a plywood frame for the cabinets to sit on rather than the feet. It offers more even support and is, in my opinion. easier than leveling each cabinet individually.
Ethan B:

I would concede that plywood is stronger in tension than MDF or particleboard, but that's irrelevant. If you get a blow large enough to kill a particleboard or MDF cabinet, plywood will be damaged enough to need replacement anyway, so what's the practical difference? Nothing. It's like the granite guys bragging that granite is heat resistant when the Marble Institute of America, their trade association, recommends the use of trivets for all natural stone countertops. If you have to use a trivet anyway, you might as well get Corian. It is a distinction without a difference.

If you have a leak under a kitchen sink, particleboard, MDF, or plywood are the least of your worries. Yeah, the plywood will buy you a little more time, but not much.

The worries about the weight of countertops are silly.

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Old 01-13-2013, 10:04 PM   #102
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Re: Ikea Cabinets


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roughly 80 to 90 man hours to assemble and install with about 80% of that time in the assembly


more 1-2days and outta there...
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:08 PM   #103
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Re: Ikea Cabinets


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I use their boxes and Blum Tandembox drawers as the basic building block for every kitchen I do. The baggie full of cam-lock "stuff" goes straight in the garbage; the boxes are glued and screwed together and I staple the backs on.

I can't buy Blum Tandembox components from Richielieu (my wholesaler here in Edmonton), then make the bottoms/backs, and then assemble them, for cheaper than just buying the knock-down Tandembox kits. Custom box sizes/applications do get custom sized Tandembox units but I try to stick to 12,15,18,21,24,30,36 as much as is practically possible when designing my kitchens.

They (IKEA) do have you "on the hook" for softclosing drawers as their Tandembox dampers are a propriatory product (manufactured by Blum, directly for IKEA) and cannot be purchased anywhere else...believe me, I've looked.

I routinely cut down the cabinet box components to customize box sizes as required. The MCP is 19mm thick and the edgebanding is not cheap "iron-on"; it's all been edgebanded (~1.5mm thick PVC) on a proper automated hot glue machine.

One little kink is the way they do their line boring. If you buy your hinges wholesale, you will need to buy Blum's 28/32 setback ("cruciform") mounting plates to work on their boxes.

Bottom line?

I simply cannot manufacture comparable cabinet boxes for anywhere close to the price of just buying them.
But then again, I do not own an Altendorf sliding table panel saw, Holzher automated edgebander or CNC line boring equipment either...

I always use their "plastic feet" and I also use their suspension rail system on long upper runs. Once you've worked with it a few times, their rail system is the cats *ss for a one man install of tall uppers. I turn the steel mounting plates 90 degrees and screw them into the upper shelf with #8 x 1" particleboard screws so that the weight is bearing down on them, not as a sideways "sheer" force.

I have only done a couple of kitchens with their doors/drawerfronts ("Lillestad"-White Oak/dark chocolate spray stain; "Adel"-Birch/browny-orange spray stain) and was not impressed (in the least) with this aspect of their line. After sales service was not an issue, the defective items were exchanged without question; but it still involved numerous trips back to the store to replace warped/deffectively finished pieces.

In almost all cases, I outsource my cabinet doors (wholesale, manufacturer direct, unfinished) and I manufacture/finish all of my full height gables, fillers, lightrail, top trim, plinth and custom components.

And nobody would call one of my kitchens "cheap"...not by a long shot.

As a matter of fact, I'm going to sign one that is just south of 40K this weekend...the IKEA store will get about 12% of that...mostly for drawers/rollouts, as there are tons of them in this particular job.

That's my "IKEA" story.
Good Story....
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:40 AM   #104
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Re: Ikea Cabinets


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Ethan B:

I would concede that plywood is stronger in tension than MDF or particleboard, but that's irrelevant. If you get a blow large enough to kill a particleboard or MDF cabinet, plywood will be damaged enough to need replacement anyway, so what's the practical difference? Nothing.
I was referring to the impact resistance of the edge on a frameless cabinet. If a customer hits the edge with a good size pan the mdf is more likely to chip than the particle board and that's a lot more likely to go than decent plywood.

I agree that the box material doesn't matter as much on a face-framed cabinet but I still prefer plywood due to the integrity of the glue joints.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:19 PM   #105
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Re: Ikea Cabinets


I was just down in Atlanta and there are some nice new door styles. I like Ikea if you use the money saved on purchasing the cabinets for nice design elements like open shelving, tiled walls, great lighting.......you can make the installation easier that way as well. I like to go Ikea or go custom......not crazy about all the stuff in between.
My 2 cents.
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:42 PM   #106
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Re: Ikea Cabinets


I've only installed ikea cabinets once. I've done a fair bit of HD RTA cabinets, and honestly I don't prefer them at all. Really the only time I ever suggest it is if the house if being upgraded for sale or if it's for a basement kitchen. Other then that I don't find them to be of sturdy construction. If I'm not going to buy custom cabinets then I try go get them from RONA or Lowes where they carry in stock assembled cabinets with a good selection of sizes. However, I try to get my customers to buy from a kitchen manufacture where I have a buddy of mine working at. I buy at employee cost. With all that being said I will install anything my customer buys; however, I always warn them and if I don't think they are understanding fully I make then sign a waiver saying not to hold me accountable if they fall apart.
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:02 AM   #107
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Re: Ikea Cabinets


Well said, i have heard it many times that people who are renovating their home just to improve the resale value, mostly switch to Ikea kitchen cabinets. Modular look in a cheaper price is something what attracts the customer.
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:42 AM   #108
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Re: Ikea Cabinets


Funny, the last couple months I've dealt with them on three different jobs.

They have there place. And I'm not going to knock them.

To each, their own.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:10 PM   #109
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Man, is it depressing to read back on this and get it straight from builders about how they will cut any corner they can. Looks like they are talking mostly about houses from $400,000 to $1M+. And they're excited about putting this crap in there? And most of the people installing them that like them talk about how they glue/pin/re-work them. Why not just buy a decent set to begin with? If you need an inexpensive set for a budget home, there are lots of places you can get them.

Sorry, but a "professional" doesn't do a $400K and up house with this junk, or with Home Depot or Lowe's junk either. All you're doing is ripping off homeowners who are too stupid to know any better. To put in something that isn't complete trash might cost 1/4 of 1 percent more. For heaven's sake, ask an extra $1,500 for the house and point out you put in cabinetry that isn't total junk.
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:49 PM   #110
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Re: Ikea Cabinets


Frankly, I don't see the issue. I know a HO who spent a lot of money on custom maple cabinets, and still didn't like the way they looked, but liked the looks of a particular Ikea kitchen cab / sink /accessories set up. Guess what - she didn't have an exact copy custom made, she just bought the Ikea cabinets. Customers can buy whatever they want, I don't have a problem with that.
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Old 04-09-2013, 01:15 PM   #111
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Re: Ikea Cabinets


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Man, is it depressing to read back on this and get it straight from builders about how they will cut any corner they can. Looks like they are talking mostly about houses from $400,000 to $1M+. And they're excited about putting this crap in there? And most of the people installing them that like them talk about how they glue/pin/re-work them. Why not just buy a decent set to begin with? If you need an inexpensive set for a budget home, there are lots of places you can get them.

Sorry, but a "professional" doesn't do a $400K and up house with this junk, or with Home Depot or Lowe's junk either. All you're doing is ripping off homeowners who are too stupid to know any better. To put in something that isn't complete trash might cost 1/4 of 1 percent more. For heaven's sake, ask an extra $1,500 for the house and point out you put in cabinetry that isn't total junk.

I don't understand your 1 percent and 1500.00 up charge for something better. In my experience.....I'll spent more than 1500.00 on one cabinet and drawer set with custom over Ikea.
I've found the variance to be much larger than 1%. The last house I used them in was valued at around 650,000. They just liked the Modular/loft look on this project.

Have you ever used Ikea?
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:50 PM   #112
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Re: Ikea Cabinets


Ikea cabinets and any standardized Euro cabinet is about manufacturing, shipping and installation efficiency, which regardless of the cost of the cabinet, should also result in s faster install and more money in the installers pocket.

I guess the question here is do you want to clear $1000 profit on $10k job, or $10k profit on $100k job?? Keep in mind that some jobs go bad and when big jobs go bad, its the contractor that tends to get hurt bad as well. To everyone preaching upsell, upsell, upsell, its not possible in every market, yet there may be adaquate demand in that market to achive the same net result by sell more less expensive jobs that you get in and out of faster with less investment on the line.

If you want to ready a good book on euro cabinet constuction, and flow manufacturing, check out www.true32.com

Bob Buckley has been preaching this for years. I used to work in a high end custom cabinet shop, and it seemed like no matter how much you charged, we always struggled to turn a profit.
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:40 AM   #113
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Re: Ikea Cabinets


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I don't understand your 1 percent and 1500.00 up charge for something better. In my experience.....I'll spent more than 1500.00 on one cabinet and drawer set with custom over Ikea.
I've found the variance to be much larger than 1%. The last house I used them in was valued at around 650,000. They just liked the Modular/loft look on this project.

Have you ever used Ikea?
If a builder is putting these in a $400,000 house, 1% of that is $4,000 1/4 of 1% is $1,000. Mark the house up another $1,500 and you have a 33% gross margin on the "upgrade."

A couple years back I compared the cost on some IKEA's off their web site vs. some Armstrong Allwood cabinets I carry, which are an okay entry to mid-range line. As I remember, a builder could have bought either at virtually the same price. I suppose I could waste my time one day doing it again, but I wanted to see how much someone could actually save using them. The answer was nothing. If you count the time putting them together you're in the hole.

By the way, I would never dream of recommending Armstrong's in a million-dollar house. Someone spending that kind of money doesn't deserve to be ripped off. I don't think anyone deserves being ripped off, which, IMO, is what Mills Pride and the other ultra-cheapy lines at the box stores are. A kitchen is too expensive to begin with to do absolute trash, then have it fall apart in no time, relatively speaking.

Not saying the IKEA's are trash - we all know what they are. It's a low-end DIY for people on a tight budget that like a pretty facade. If a young couple likes the look, I'm all for it. But reality is they can buy a box cabinet for about the same money that is as good or better quality.

Knock-downs are for DIY's with a mind-set they are cheap and are getting over on anyplace that would quote them a set already made. I brought in 3 or 4 knock downs from a place a few years back. Best knock downs I could find, from what I could tell on the web. As knock downs go, they were pretty nice. Lovely facade, nice finish, better-quality mechanical fastners. Still were poor quality construction vs. any decent mid-range line, and no real price savings. Always missing or damaged parts or panels, and getting replacement panels? Forget it, everything is in a box as a "whole cabinet" that came in a box from China.

I don't object to a homeowner buying IKEA. If my wife and I were still 25 and in our first house, I might do it, too. But if I'm buying a $400k or more house and find out they put in IKEA, I'm turning on my heel and walking out. If he is willing to cut corners on that, I know he cut corners where it DOESN'T show.
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Old 04-10-2013, 11:14 AM   #114
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Re: Ikea Cabinets


Have you guys been coming across a lot of IKEA cabinets that are falling apart? I know I haven't. Even the cheapest cabinets, if taken care of can outlast the typical lifespan of a kitchen of 15 years.
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Old 04-10-2013, 12:39 PM   #115
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I have not come across any IKEA's at all in this area. I HAVE come across a lot of people who built or bought a house that is 10-12 years old and the cheapies are falling apart the builders put in or the homeowners wound up with because the allowance wouldn't cover anything but crap.

For a decent cabinet, you should get at least 25 years out of them, 40-plus for quality stuff. The neighborhoods next to my store are 50-60 years old, and the attitude most people have is the original kitchens (which were cheap builder grade then) are just fine, they expect to get another 60 years or more out of them. Usually I'm told "they're really good and in great shape." Guess we shouldn't count the drawers off the slides, the missing doors, the broken hinges, or the finish being worn down to raw wood. And I'm NOT exaggerating.

As for IKEA's, I've read a couple internet stories where the comments from people who had them were 100% about how cheap they were. Many people commented they looked nice when they put them in, but started having issues within months. Not being something I sell, can't say first-hand. But I'd be cautious if I was selling "quality remodels" or nicer houses just based on those comments, which are NOT a scientific sample.

I don't have anything against IKEA, or even knock downs in general - if someone understands what they're getting and used appropriately. If I were on a tight budget and a DIY project, I might buy them. But trying to pass them off as "fine cabinetry" is silly. I don't object to the box stores selling junk tile, hardwood, etc. I DO object to them not telling people the stuff is seconds and thirds. And I object to builders who put stuff like that in expensive homes, which I know for a fact they do. How would you like to buy a $600,000 home and find out everything in it was a reject that didn't pass quality control?

Last edited by KG007; 04-10-2013 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:29 PM   #116
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Why would anyone want cabinets that are 25+ years old? No matter how good quality they are they will look dated and ugly in that time.

Granted they are good for me as I specialize in refacing them but I find that even the cheap cabinets also make good candidates for refacing. As long as there isn't water damage in the sink cabinet the main problems are that the doors are out of date or the hinge screws have threaded out. Even cheap cabinets can last forever.

I had a call once from this woman who had melamine cabinets that you would amazed to find out they were 20+ years old. I thought they were put in a year before. Everything in her home was meticulous and she took amazing care of the cabinets.

The doors are what makes a cabinet, the inside in most cases are almost always good enough.
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Old 04-10-2013, 05:26 PM   #117
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Guess we'd probably disagree on a lot of things, DK, but each to their own. Here's what I CAN tell you. The average age of a kitchen is probably at least 30, maybe over 40, when it gets replaced. Ditto bathrooms. I've been in lots of houses and talked to people who think you're nuts if you point out the kitchen is over 55 years old and they might want to spruce it up.

We had a lady two weeks ago THINKING about changing the original vinyl floor from 1962, and maybe the vanity and ugly tiled top on it. But we'd have to guarantee we could cut the 51-year old cheap crap (even then) 4x4 tiles in a perfectly smooth line across the TILE, not grout line, and move an electrical plug by magic to not disturb her perfect tile because the new top would be taller than the old. Oh, yeah, the faucets in the tub haven't worked in years, but leave the shower head and no you can't go in the drywall behind to change a valve. And it has to be cheap cheap cheap even though she insisted on a cusomized vanity with a furniture toe opaqued with a glaze. No, we didn't get the job, thank God.

The industry says carpet should average 7 years, 12 to 15 is long. Guarantee the average age is probably more like 20+, and isn't unusual we are taking up stuff 30-40+ years old.

My original point isn't any of this - it was I'm depressed reading how excited builders are putting this crap in $400K to $1.2M houses because they can buy it a couple hundred dollars cheaper. If someone says "I've got a $70,000 house and this is my DIY project on a shoestring that I hope to get 10-15 years from," hey, I'm all for it. For "pros" putting in a "high quality" kitchen in new construction or a remodel, it's depressing.
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Old 04-10-2013, 08:12 PM   #118
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Re: Ikea Cabinets


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Guess we'd probably disagree on a lot of things, DK, but each to their own. Here's what I CAN tell you. The average age of a kitchen is probably at least 30, maybe over 40, when it gets replaced. Ditto bathrooms. I've been in lots of houses and talked to people who think you're nuts if you point out the kitchen is over 55 years old and they might want to spruce it up.

We had a lady two weeks ago THINKING about changing the original vinyl floor from 1962, and maybe the vanity and ugly tiled top on it. But we'd have to guarantee we could cut the 51-year old cheap crap (even then) 4x4 tiles in a perfectly smooth line across the TILE, not grout line, and move an electrical plug by magic to not disturb her perfect tile because the new top would be taller than the old. Oh, yeah, the faucets in the tub haven't worked in years, but leave the shower head and no you can't go in the drywall behind to change a valve. And it has to be cheap cheap cheap even though she insisted on a cusomized vanity with a furniture toe opaqued with a glaze. No, we didn't get the job, thank God.

The industry says carpet should average 7 years, 12 to 15 is long. Guarantee the average age is probably more like 20+, and isn't unusual we are taking up stuff 30-40+ years old.

My original point isn't any of this - it was I'm depressed reading how excited builders are putting this crap in $400K to $1.2M houses because they can buy it a couple hundred dollars cheaper. If someone says "I've got a $70,000 house and this is my DIY project on a shoestring that I hope to get 10-15 years from," hey, I'm all for it. For "pros" putting in a "high quality" kitchen in new construction or a remodel, it's depressing.
I don't disagree with many of your points......and I don't want to sound like I put Ikea in all the time and I'm the worlds authority on this cabinet system...I just don't think IKEA belongs in the crap category.

What I do think belongs in the crap category is the 22000.00 worth of "custom" cabinets in the house I worked on today.
I don't care if the boxes were made of plywood....they looked like dog balls. The "custom" latex paint job isn't going to last till Christmas. I guess you don't always get what you pay for either.

I know there's a lot of great cabinet builders out there, but these nice folks would have done a lot better with 9000.00 worth of Ikea and taken I nice European vacation with the difference.
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:02 PM   #119
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Really, cabinets are furniture. I've seen plenty of chairs I wouldn't buy and some I wouldn't sit it. People like what people like.
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Old 04-11-2013, 10:54 AM   #120
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Jack, I think you're right on. I've seen "custom cabinets" that were installed and painted on-site that looks doggy. There's a place near me that a lot of builders use so they can say "custom cabinets by so-and-so." Reality is they are usually cheap thermofoil, but because they WERE custom built for that kitchen they can legitimately say that.

I probably should parse my statements. As knock downs go, IKEA may be perfectly nice. But it galls me when someone is all wiggly excited about putting something like that in an expensive home because he thinks he can get over on homeowners who don't know any better.

Really, someone on here was talking about putting them in a $1.2M house. How cheap can you get? A kitchen in a house like that should be between $100,000 and $200,000. A nice set of cabinets for that would probably run from $25K to $45K for just the cabinets. And if you can't find something that makes the difference obvious, it's because you don't really want to spend the money on what the house deserves.

And by the time they're put together, there isn't any savings over an entry to mid-range line. If you like the facade and it's a budget job, great, but thinking you've found the end-all in quality, fashionable cabinetry at a price a fraction of anyone else's is baloney.

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