How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers? - Tiling - Contractor Talk

How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?

 
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Old 12-07-2014, 02:54 PM   #1
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How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


I just started wandering what methods you guys use to explain the importance of a waterproof shower, or just properly installed tile for that matter to your customers.

I have had so many customers, homeowners and GC's that believe that Hardibacker is the crème de la crème when it come to tile backers but so many don't understand that its an absolute sponge and something waterproof needs to be over it!
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Old 12-07-2014, 03:12 PM   #2
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


I just include all the proper material and time to install it in the quote, if they argue the importance of any aspect I tell them, that the only way I can guarantee my work, is if they let me use my preferred method and materials. If they refuse then I walk.

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Old 12-07-2014, 03:19 PM   #3
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


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I just include all the proper material and time to install it in the quote, if they argue the importance of any aspect I tell them, that the only way I can guarantee my work, is if they let me use my preferred method and materials. If they refuse then I walk.
+1 Tell them if is not done properly I won't guarantee the work and it will be a very expensive mess to fix down the road.Then I walk.
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Old 12-07-2014, 04:14 PM   #4
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


I haven't really had a hard time with it. I don't work for GC's though. What possible reason could someone give for NOT wanting a waterproof shower? I have about 100 pictures of rotten shower walls that I could pull out if they ever felt like arguing but I think that only a total cheapskate would even bring that up so I'd be moving on.
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Old 12-07-2014, 04:20 PM   #5
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


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I haven't really had a hard time with it. I don't work for GC's though. What possible reason could someone give for NOT wanting a waterproof shower? I have about 100 pictures of rotten shower walls that I could pull out if they ever felt like arguing but I think that only a total cheapskate would even bring that up so I'd be moving on.
Thats typically what I end up doing, just the the pics speak for themselves.
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Old 12-07-2014, 05:44 PM   #6
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


There is so much remodeling going on in my area that I have to sell it. There are too many cut rate guys that are destroying theses homes with improper installation methods.

I simply explain the process and how it protects them. If they don't want to pay for that security then they get what they deserve.
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Old 12-07-2014, 06:56 PM   #7
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


I explain the methods and materials that I use and
will quote into the job.

If they want something less than my standards,

They'll be shopping for their own tile guy.
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Old 12-07-2014, 09:07 PM   #8
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


Since joining this forum, my eyes have been opened to waterproofing shower tile installs. I really always thought that durock, or other cement board, thinset, and tile/grout was totally legit.

Granted, I've only done 2 shower surrounds, one for my mom and the other for a friend.

Are these guaranteed to fail? I recall demo on shower tile in the past over CBU that didn't have any issues aside from being ugly.
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Old 12-07-2014, 09:16 PM   #9
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


Have never had to make a strong stand on the issue. Have had clients question if its absolutely necessary, once they understand what they are requesting I eliminate from the scope of work a light bulb comes on...

Educating the homeowner with out being demeaning may be the easiest way to avoid feeling like you need to defend you method of working.
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:12 PM   #10
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


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Since joining this forum, my eyes have been opened to waterproofing shower tile installs. I really always thought that durock, or other cement board, thinset, and tile/grout was totally legit.

Granted, I've only done 2 shower surrounds, one for my mom and the other for a friend.

Are these guaranteed to fail? I recall demo on shower tile in the past over CBU that didn't have any issues aside from being ugly.
Depends on the amount of use, I have seen multiple showers built in the same home with the same methods at the same time, one had a small amount of mold damage, the other had completely rotted out three key trusses to the point where a structural engineer had to be called in.

The cheap building methods saved the customers maybe a few hundred dollars in the beginning and in the end costed them many many thousands of dollars extra.
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Old 12-10-2014, 12:07 PM   #11
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


Going to the Shluter training course gave me the info needed to educate a customer on the technical aspects of correctly installing a tile shower. Education is key. If they choose to go another route after I explain why I do it a certain way, then that is up to them.
I am thankful for the hacks that went before me, they assure that there will always be remodeling work in the future.
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Old 01-02-2015, 11:50 PM   #12
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


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Going to the Shluter training course gave me the info needed to educate a customer on the technical aspects of correctly installing a tile shower. Education is key. If they choose to go another route after I explain why I do it a certain way, then that is up to them.
I am thankful for the hacks that went before me, they assure that there will always be remodeling work in the future.
Agreed.
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Old 01-03-2015, 09:37 AM   #13
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


So weird to me that you guys have to sell people on this.

That's like a mechanic trying to sell someone that they should really change their oil regularly.

I suppose there are people that think changing oil is just a scam for the mechanic to get more money.
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Old 01-03-2015, 10:16 AM   #14
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


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So weird to me that you guys have to sell people on this.

That's like a mechanic trying to sell someone that they should really change their oil regularly.

I suppose there are people that think changing oil is just a scam for the mechanic to get more money.
Waterproofing is a fairly new concept. Most people believe the tile and grout are waterproof. It's nothing like changing your oil. That's been drilled into people since the automobile came out.
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Old 01-03-2015, 10:31 AM   #15
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


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Originally Posted by ArtisanRemod View Post
Going to the Shluter training course
one of the problems of going to a sales seminar is their job, they exist, to sell you their product so you then in turn sell their product to your customers. schluter was very good--or terrible--at what they did, depending upon how one looks at it, but in the end their job is to sell their product(s).

I'm sure most of us have demo'd showers that were 2-3 decades old that had greenboard and that old mastic for their materials. The failures that took place were due to the failure of the old mastic and the normal places. A lot of them I've done have had no water damage, just failure of good adhesion of that old mastic. But it's only above paper anyway, so for what it was, it worked surprisingly well. It would be interesting to see how well thinset worked over drywall over the same timeframe, but never saw that so don't know.
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Old 01-03-2015, 10:33 AM   #16
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


Why change your oil? Put in oil, oil drips out, put in more oil, oil is always new! Silly mechanics.
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Old 01-03-2015, 10:43 AM   #17
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


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one of the problems of going to a sales seminar is their job, they exist, to sell you their product so you then in turn sell their product to your customers. schluter was very good--or terrible--at what they did, depending upon how one looks at it, but in the end their job is to sell their product(s).

I'm sure most of us have demo'd showers that were 2-3 decades old that had greenboard and that old mastic for their materials. The failures that took place were due to the failure of the old mastic and the normal places. A lot of them I've done have had no water damage, just failure of good adhesion of that old mastic. But it's only above paper anyway, so for what it was, it worked surprisingly well. It would be interesting to see how well thinset worked over drywall over the same timeframe, but never saw that so don't know.
The issue they I find in those installations is grout failure that in fact does lead to substrate failure. That and caulk failure.

The most common complaint was mold and mildew. And that's the rub with mastic.
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Old 01-03-2015, 10:44 AM   #18
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


I will say that I have demo'd a few that had little signs of damage.
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Old 01-03-2015, 10:44 AM   #19
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


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Waterproofing is a fairly new concept.
Sort of. Using steam room rated material for residential showers is what has changed and that's pushed as a sales tool. There have been a lot of gang showers, probably hundreds of thousands, built that weren't mud, nor were they steam room grade 'waterproofed' with the latest manufacturer's products.

I'm old school as ya know, but I think what has happened is the trade has been reduced to an 'assembler' position and skill level. Get the kit, open it, and follow directions. Knowledge has been lost and replaced with usage of materials as recommended. Like on guy here that used hardibacker over a slab to set. He heard/read how great it is for tile and it'll give him a flat surfaces, just as advertised, so he bedded it and set on it.

But the reduction in skill/knowledge is in all the trades. A lot of things are going pre-fab or kit, trusses are just one example. A lot of the framing knowledge is lost and replaced with assembling in order.
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Old 01-03-2015, 10:46 AM   #20
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Re: How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?


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I will say that I have demo'd a few that had little signs of damage.
Isn't that a trip? I would have thought more would, but the more I did, the less I saw of it. Easy demo though.

What's interesting is to see how very rural people do their showers. Check out motels in far away places to see how they do things. And some of them have been going strong for 5 decades.....

Always amazing what we can find in the trades.

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