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Failed Shower System

 
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Old Today, 07:02 AM   #1
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Failed Shower System


This contractor peeled back a shower floor to find the problem. Worth a look for those who have ever wondered about the various systems on the market. Linear drain fail in this one.



Last edited by Leo G; Today at 07:41 AM.
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Old Today, 07:36 AM   #2
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Re: Failed Shower System


Once he said it was blue I knew it was Noble.

I've done a couple of the early Noble systems. If I recall correctly the lineal drain membrane was afixed with a clamping ring below drain cover. You placed the membrane, installed the clamp, cut out the drain body area.

Yep---definitely used a clamping ring.

My guess is this was installer error, didn't get the membrane clamped properly. He did do a nice job getting the tile bonded.

Tom
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Old Today, 09:30 AM   #3
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Re: Failed Shower System


Ouch
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Old Today, 09:35 AM   #4
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Re: Failed Shower System


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Originally Posted by tjbnwi View Post
Once he said it was blue I knew it was Noble.

I've done a couple of the early Noble systems. If I recall correctly the lineal drain membrane was afixed with a clamping ring below drain cover. You placed the membrane, installed the clamp, cut out the drain body area.

Yep---definitely used a clamping ring.

My guess is this was installer error, didn't get the membrane clamped properly. He did do a nice job getting the tile bonded.

Tom
He refers to the flap of waterproofing membrane as being factory installed. Sure there wasn't a version that was diferent than the current one?
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Old Today, 01:27 PM   #5
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Re: Failed Shower System


They had drains that were pre-bonded with Noble Seal. It looked like a failure in that bond. Kudos for him for posting the video.
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Old Today, 01:41 PM   #6
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Re: Failed Shower System


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They had drains that were pre-bonded with Noble Seal. It looked like a failure in that bond. Kudos for him for posting the video.
Wow, with that kinda rot I would guess the failure probably occured in the first couple years. Hope Nobel steps up to the plate.

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Old Today, 01:41 PM   #7
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Re: Failed Shower System


This is what pisses me off with this line of work. You upsell you work in quality procedures and the best laid plans go kaput.

These manufacturers most of the time will replace their product but not the expensive labor involved.

I still rip out my jobs from the 1950s that are perfectly intact because the people were clean. All of these new systems or a head-scratcher long-term.
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Old Today, 01:54 PM   #8
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Re: Failed Shower System


I'm still not completely sold on the new systems.

One little leak in membrane, etc. and it can all go to hell, just like that one. Too much is riding on flawless installers, as well.

I still haven't done a new one over drywall and kerdi, either.
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Old Today, 05:47 PM   #9
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Re: Failed Shower System


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Wow, with that kinda rot I would guess the failure probably occured in the first couple years. Hope Nobel steps up to the plate.

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I would wager the first shower it was leaking.
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Old Today, 05:49 PM   #10
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Re: Failed Shower System


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I'm still not completely sold on the new systems.

One little leak in membrane, etc. and it can all go to hell, just like that one. Too much is riding on flawless installers, as well.

I still haven't done a new one over drywall and kerdi, either.
How is that different than a liner and mud bed? Hotmop? One little leak...

Their are millions of installations using these products. Noble Seal TS is no different than Kerdi.
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Re: Failed Shower System


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How is that different than a liner and mud bed? Hotmop? One little leak...

Their are millions of installations using these products. Noble Seal TS is no different than Kerdi.
A couple hundred years of proving the system.

Would be very surprised if Noble is using the exact same method today as when that product in the video was made.

It was their newness to market that made me shy away from these systems in the early 2000s.

Time changes things.
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Old Today, 06:05 PM   #12
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Re: Failed Shower System


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How is that different than a liner and mud bed? Hotmop? One little leak...

Their are millions of installations using these products. Noble Seal TS is no different than Kerdi.

A liner and mudbed are more durable, and end up further from the surface where things tend to happen over time.

I'm not sold on foam base pans lasting the long haul, either. Laying 2x2's is my limit, and I still think it wouldn't hold up with an obese individual, for example, compared to a traditional base. I once knelt on one, and darned if it didn't depress the tile into the base, and I'm 210.

If there will never, ever be a leak, then sure. But that's not the typical homeowner experience. It's almost like expecting a roof to never, ever leak, and if it does, blame the installer.

Are the foam board companies still saying caulk will seal the corners by itself? That's pollyanna nuts, too, imho.
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Re: Failed Shower System


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I would wager the first shower it was leaking.
Gotta wonder if a flood test was done prior to tile.
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Re: Failed Shower System


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Gotta wonder if a flood test was done prior to tile.
Exactly what I was thinking...and I wonder if that's required by the manufacturer.

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Old Today, 06:33 PM   #15
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Re: Failed Shower System


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Gotta wonder if a flood test was done prior to tile.
It could have been. Problem is it's just 24 hours and slow leak won't reveal itself after that short of a time period.
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Old Today, 06:35 PM   #16
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Re: Failed Shower System


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How is that different than a liner and mud bed? Hotmop? One little leak...



Their are millions of installations using these products. Noble Seal TS is no different than Kerdi.
When was the first Nobel linear drain installed? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say 13 years ago they were fairly new...

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Old Today, 06:38 PM   #17
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Re: Failed Shower System


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A liner and mudbed are more durable, and end up further from the surface where things tend to happen over time.

According to? I have torn out more failed liners than Membrane showers. More drywall and mastic.

I'm not sold on foam base pans lasting the long haul, either. Laying 2x2's is my limit, and I still think it wouldn't hold up with an obese individual, for example, compared to a traditional base. I once knelt on one, and darned if it didn't depress the tile into the base, and I'm 210.

2x2 is the limit per the manufacturer. I can't testify nor comment on your experience, but from my experience of installing dozens upon dozens of foam pans, I have no issue sleeping at night.

If there will never, ever be a leak, then sure. But that's not the typical homeowner experience. It's almost like expecting a roof to never, ever leak, and if it does, blame the installer.

Nothing is 100%

Are the foam board companies still saying caulk will seal the corners by itself? That's pollyanna nuts, too, imho.
I don't know of and have never heard of a single foam manufacturer who has ever recommended caulking will seal anything. You must use their sealant and caulk isn't a sealant.
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Old Today, 06:43 PM   #18
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Re: Failed Shower System


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I don't know of and have never heard of a single foam manufacturer who has ever recommended caulking will seal anything. You must use their sealant and caulk isn't a sealant.
I meant the proper "sealant". It just pisses me off so much that I "mis-spoke". And I'm mixing my storied since it infuriates me so....a wedi demo got to me once.

Also, I don't want to have an argument with you personally. I know you are pretty damned anal about making it right (a compliment). My issue is that when an install requires so many hoops to jump through and get just right, maybe it's not all that great a method after all.

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Old Today, 06:59 PM   #19
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Re: Failed Shower System


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He refers to the flap of waterproofing membrane as being factory installed. Sure there wasn't a version that was diferent than the current one?
The picture I posted is from the same time frame as the one in the video.

Notice we never saw the drain body with the grate removed?

Tom
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Old Today, 07:04 PM   #20
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Re: Failed Shower System


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I meant the proper "sealant". It just pisses me off so much that I "mis-spoke". And I'm mixing my storied since it infuriates me so....a wedi demo got to me once.

Also, I don't want to have an argument with you personally. I know you are pretty damned anal about making it right (a compliment). My issue is that when an install requires so many hoops to jump through and get just right, maybe it's not all that great a method after all.
The systems are very easy to install properly in my opinion.

Tom

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