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Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach

 
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Old 09-23-2018, 09:53 AM   #21
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


Quote:
Originally Posted by Robie View Post
Can you sketch that out and post it...draw it on the google photo.



My opinion....this is a massive project and if you don't get the alphabet agencies involved...you will end up wishing you did. You can't weed-wack weeds next to a body of water around here.


After looking at it all day yesterday, and this morning after a good downpour last night, I have a plan of action.

It seems very obvious what was done wrong.

1) The ford that was cut is channeling water up to the approach.

2) The worst damage/erosion is on the downstream side of the approach where the farmer just let it drop off (where the drop was fairly abrupt from the damage from the last flood).

3) The bridge abutments suffered no erosion at all, despite taking the brunt of the speed and volume of the water.
They didnít lose any rip rap, not even 6Ē rocks, clearly because they were shaped well to smooth the flow.

Knowing all of this, my plan is as such....

Bring in a bunch more rip rap to do two things.
Slope both the up and downstream sides of the approach, and raise the entire approach above high water level.

One other consideration is a long term solution to the funnel created by the ford.

That I havenít quite figured out yet.


So......?
What say you?

Culverts ....?
Are they completely necessary?

Ford future?


As far as the alphabets....weíre all good.


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Old 09-23-2018, 10:02 AM   #22
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


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Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
I'm guessing where he is it won't have to be permitted. Changing a bank or a channel is a no-no, but some vegetation can be removed within 75' of the bank. It's a road, you'd need to have runoff / erosion control during construction if you're digging or placing soil, and that's about it.
Maybe.

Maybe not.

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/adminco...25/chapter220/
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Old 09-23-2018, 10:06 AM   #23
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


From what I am reading, even FEMA gets involved when small bridges and culverts are in play...even in outlying areas.

All I'm saying is, in today's world, just because some place is out in the sticks, doesn't mean it's out of sight/jurisdiction...from government agencies. That's all.

...and...Virginia owns all water.

(ß 62.1-44.3) "State waters" means all water, on the surface and under
the ground, wholly or partially within or bordering the
Commonwealth or within its jurisdiction, including wetlands. Such
waters are a natural resource which should be regulated by the
Commonwealth.
"Wetlands" means those areas that are inundated or saturated by
surface or groundwater at a frequency and duration sufficient to
support, and that under normal circumstances do support, a
prevalence of vegetation typically adapted for life in saturated soil
conditions. Wetlands generally include swamps, marshes, bogs and
similar areas.
http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/TOC6201000.HTM
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Old 09-23-2018, 11:01 AM   #24
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


That's pretty much a copy of the federal regulations. His road isn't a wetland or a stream.

If floodwaters were the criteria, the whole country would be in trouble. IMO, if local officials are good with it, he's good. They'll have the overlays for the protection zones and local, state and federal compliance requirements.

Last edited by hdavis; 09-23-2018 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 09-23-2018, 12:08 PM   #25
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


Quote:
Originally Posted by Robie View Post
From what I am reading, even FEMA gets involved when small bridges and culverts are in play...even in outlying areas.

All I'm saying is, in today's world, just because some place is out in the sticks, doesn't mean it's out of sight/jurisdiction...from government agencies. That's all.

...and...Virginia owns all water.

(ß 62.1-44.3) "State waters" means all water, on the surface and under
the ground, wholly or partially within or bordering the
Commonwealth or within its jurisdiction, including wetlands. Such
waters are a natural resource which should be regulated by the
Commonwealth.
"Wetlands" means those areas that are inundated or saturated by
surface or groundwater at a frequency and duration sufficient to
support, and that under normal circumstances do support, a
prevalence of vegetation typically adapted for life in saturated soil
conditions. Wetlands generally include swamps, marshes, bogs and
similar areas.
http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/TOC6201000.HTM
OK, so sue Virginia because their water destroyed the bridge.

Ahhh that's what I thought. They want it both ways, own the water but have zero liability for it. Tell you how you have to do everything and make you pay all the costs.
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Old 09-23-2018, 12:11 PM   #26
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


Quote:
Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
That's pretty much a copy of the federal regulations. His road isn't a wetland or a stream.

If floodwaters were the criteria, the whole country would be in trouble. IMO, if local officials are good with it, he's good. They'll have the overlays for the protection zones and local, state and federal compliance requirements.
Depends if the Waters Act that buckwheat put in place is still there. He let the DEP claim that all the water was the govts. Oceans, lakes, rivers, streams, rain water puddles... everything.
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Old 09-23-2018, 12:31 PM   #27
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo G View Post
Depends if the Waters Act that buckwheat put in place is still there. He let the DEP claim that all the water was the govts. Oceans, lakes, rivers, streams, rain water puddles... everything.
It looks like a river. I think they were protected before Obama got into office.
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Old 09-23-2018, 01:00 PM   #28
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


That looks like a beautiful property why even touch it?


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Old 09-23-2018, 01:24 PM   #29
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


I won't go too far into it, but federal regulatiins for farms are different from the rest. Even within the exclusion zones, it's particular activities which trigger lots of paperwork and reviews to get approval.

Everything can be tighter, depending on state and local jurisdictions. A couple areas up here have vernal pool restrictiins, so you have to get approval if a vernal pool is within 200 feet.

For thise who don't know, a vernal pool is a mud puddle that frogs, salamanders breed in and then dries up. Operationally, it's more miney to get the study dine, plus the determinatiin that it usn't a *significant* vernal pool to get approval.

That's why I say ask the AHJ, they will know if you'll be triggering additional approvals in that particular location.

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Old 09-23-2018, 01:37 PM   #30
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


One other comment. The official overlays may not be correct. I've seen ones that shiw wetlands where there are none, and no wetlands where there are wetlands. The FEMA maps for coastal flooding are notirious for being problematic.
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Old 09-23-2018, 01:49 PM   #31
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


I have to admit I'm a little envious. I'd love to have that place. Floods and all just like it sits!!! Maybe I'll move next door than BRG and I can be neighbors. you know shoot the **** over a couple ice teas.


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Old 09-23-2018, 01:54 PM   #32
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


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Originally Posted by Californiadecks View Post
That looks like a beautiful property why even touch it?


Mike.
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Itís pure heaven.

Thereís a remarkable natural ford downstream from the bridge that acts like a 10í wide, 6í deep, 100í long whirlpool.

Great fishing, we stock it with trout.

Perfect for kayaking, paddle boarding...etc.

100 acres, half in woods, some we let a neighbor farm, and a third in food plots, which means fantastic deer, turkey, and dove hunting.
Fruit trees all over.
Peaches, pears, apples, persimmons.
Just built a nice garden.

Backs up to 10ís of thousands of acres of National Forest.

Itís about 40 mins outside of town.

We plan on living here full time when we retire and the kids go off to college.

Thinking of building some cabins down by the river for vacation rentals/guests.

We spend every minute we can here.

Iím just going to beef up the approach so we donít have to come out of pocket to the tune of $7k a year to pay someone to keep pushing rocks around.

Wonít change the property at all really.

Same thing as before.
Just higher and wider....and sloped correctly.


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Old 09-23-2018, 01:58 PM   #33
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


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Originally Posted by Californiadecks View Post
I have to admit I'm a little envious. I'd love to have that place. Floods and all just like it sits!!! Maybe I'll move next door than BRG and I can be neighbors. you know shoot the **** over a couple ice teas.


Mike.
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The floods never come up near the cabin or the rest of the property.

Just that darn approach.

We are hoping to buy the place next door and add another 80 to it.

Iíll save you a couple acres.
You can keep a van down by the river.
(You do know that it snows here....?)


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Old 09-23-2018, 02:06 PM   #34
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


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Originally Posted by BlueRidgeGreen View Post
The floods never come up near the cabin or the rest of the property.

Just that darn approach.

We are hoping to buy the place next door and add another 80 to it.

Iíll save you a couple acres.
You can keep a van down by the river.
(You do know that it snows here....?)


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It gets cold? As in 'no flip flops' cold?????


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Old 09-23-2018, 02:43 PM   #35
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


We don't care if you wear flip flops in 20 degree weather Mike, more power to ya.
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Old 09-23-2018, 03:07 PM   #36
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


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One other comment. The official overlays may not be correct. I've seen ones that shiw wetlands where there are none, and no wetlands where there are wetlands. The FEMA maps for coastal flooding are notirious for being problematic.
And then they call a guy in who make $1000 a day who walks around in boots and has a stick to poke in the ground and just stands there and looks around for a while. I saw this same guy on 3 different jobs here, he determines what and what not is wetlands, ties ribbons on trees/bushes so when the surveyor comes mack he can remap it.

Told me he has the best job in the world because hardly anyone has the experience that he did.
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Old 09-23-2018, 03:17 PM   #37
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


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It gets cold? As in 'no flip flops' cold?????


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It certainly does.

Not HDavis in Maine cold, but cold.

Youíre probably stubborn enough to wear flops anyway.


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Old 09-23-2018, 07:15 PM   #38
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


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And then they call a guy in who make $1000 a day who walks around in boots and has a stick to poke in the ground and just stands there and looks around for a while. I saw this same guy on 3 different jobs here, he determines what and what not is wetlands, ties ribbons on trees/bushes so when the surveyor comes mack he can remap it.

Told me he has the best job in the world because hardly anyone has the experience that he did.
How do you get that job? You've sold me!

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Old 09-23-2018, 09:31 PM   #39
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


If you just raise the ground level of the approach you will be creating a dam that holds back the water that would have normally washed out the approach.
Since you now dam that water you will most likely raise the water to now wash over the bridge.

If you raise the road bed you will need to set some pipes to let that flood water pass by under the road like it normally does when it washes everything away.
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Old 09-23-2018, 09:33 PM   #40
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Re: Redirecting River Flow To Protect Bridge Approach


Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRidgeGreen View Post
After looking at it all day yesterday, and this morning after a good downpour last night, I have a plan of action.

It seems very obvious what was done wrong.

1) The ford that was cut is channeling water up to the approach.

2) The worst damage/erosion is on the downstream side of the approach where the farmer just let it drop off (where the drop was fairly abrupt from the damage from the last flood).

3) The bridge abutments suffered no erosion at all, despite taking the brunt of the speed and volume of the water.
They didnít lose any rip rap, not even 6Ē rocks, clearly because they were shaped well to smooth the flow.

Knowing all of this, my plan is as such....

Bring in a bunch more rip rap to do two things.
Slope both the up and downstream sides of the approach, and raise the entire approach above high water level.

One other consideration is a long term solution to the funnel created by the ford.

That I havenít quite figured out yet.


So......?
What say you?

Culverts ....?
Are they completely necessary?

Ford future?


As far as the alphabets....weíre all good.


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The permitting process for changing the ford will be a killer.

The general approach seems OK, but you're trusting your eyes on this one.

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