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Ready To Stay Home

 
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Old 03-09-2009, 09:30 PM   #1
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Ready To Stay Home


i am ready to stay home any more. People think that you can do jobs for a couple 100 bucks there nuts. i have a 75,000 truck a 60,000 hoe and a 20,000 trailer and thats not fuel taxs and everything else you just cant make a couple 100 bucks and stay in bissniess with that kind of investment and operating cost you need to make atleast $500 on a one day job maybe i am wrong
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Old 03-09-2009, 09:34 PM   #2
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


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Originally Posted by IHI55j View Post
i am ready to stay home any more. People think that you can do jobs for a couple 100 bucks there nuts. i have a 75,000 truck a 60,000 hoe and a 20,000 trailer and thats not fuel taxs and everything else you just cant make a couple 100 bucks and stay in bissniess with that kind of investment and operating cost you need to make atleast $500 on a one day job maybe i am wrong
no, you're not wrong, but why in the world do you need a $75K truck? it roading at least 6-12's a week? and if you're working 5 days a week, at $500 a day, you're starving to death.

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Old 03-09-2009, 09:42 PM   #3
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


Time to get rid of the $60,000 hoe. Those hoe's are always diggen for more cash.
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Old 03-09-2009, 09:52 PM   #4
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


the 75k truck might be a little high but you cant buy a 1 ton anymore for less than 30k
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Old 03-10-2009, 08:33 AM   #5
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


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Originally Posted by IHI55j View Post
i am ready to stay home any more. People think that you can do jobs for a couple 100 bucks there nuts. i have a 75,000 truck a 60,000 hoe and a 20,000 trailer and thats not fuel taxs and everything else you just cant make a couple 100 bucks and stay in bissniess with that kind of investment and operating cost you need to make atleast $500 on a one day job maybe i am wrong

With that kind of investment you better be making a heck of bunch more than $500 a day. You will be broke soon. Maybe time to re-think your equipment costs? Here's some comparison figures... $6K semi tractor, $10K RGN trailer, $27K dozer, $24K excavator, $26K excavator, $33.5K excavator, $15K dumptruck..... You have more tied up in 3 pieces than I do in 7 pieces... I bought most of mine one piece at a time as I could afford it, not to say that I dont use my banker but I dont over extend myself either.
As for working for $500 a day... well, I wont. I dont like to work hourly but if I have to it wont be cheap, know what your worth and bill accordingly. Its a tough business to be in in these times but the sun is gonna start shining soon and there will be work.... Hang in there!
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Old 03-10-2009, 03:53 PM   #6
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


We are in the shop going over our '83 Diamond Reo tandem tractor. It is pretty rusty and we sandblasted the frame, and we are painting the cab right now. Took the fuel tank off, that is rotted, blew some holes threw the hyd. tank and had to rebuild that. Had to fab up a new 5th wheel plate, brakes needed to be done. It is alot of work, but to go spend alot of money on a truck that doesn't make you money is senseless IMO.

Right now, there are not too many jobs to bid, so you may have take the couple hundred dollar jobs to pay the bills. Stay strong and positive, be smart with you finances and we will all get through this. One thing I am hoping is that the weaker companies will be phased out.
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Old 03-11-2009, 07:12 AM   #7
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


The point from the thread starter is getting missed

This economy is starting to take a toll on my head and I need to say a little about it.

Yea, its nice to keep up on older iron and not have notes but when you get down to it, it probably costs almost as much in up keep to have older iron as it does to have newer iron with less hours. In addition to that what about the lost time to hunt down parts for 25 year old iron that hasent been produced in 10 years. Theres a cost of time which = money.

This business (like any business) shouldnt have to always be about how cheap can I do it. And there are plenty of related businesses that couldnt care less if we (as iron owners) are hurting.

Case in point: I recently needed a new trans for one of my RD690 macks. I checked several sources for rebuilts from Connecticut, to Philly, to Boston, to Jersey. I found plenty of units out there and the places i called had a real lack of business. Slow as can be and really wanted to sell a rebuilt one on the shelf or they'd rebuild mine. But, Guess what? The price was practicaly the same over the 6 places and the almost 300 mile radius I searched. They were all at $3200.00 plus / minus. Not 1 guy said "hey, I'm slow right now, why not cut Vinny a deal just to keep my people busy"

The bottom line: It was what it was. This is what it costs. So I bought it. I could have saved $1000 by buying a used one but no one can say if thier used one was any good.

My points:
1) ANYONE in this part of the construction industry needs to realize and understand thier costs. If you dont get it, get help or get the F out.

2) Realize you cant lower your price with out doing something to lower it. Either accept the fact you'll loose money this year, lower your employees pay, rob the parts department at your equipment dealer, hijack a F n deisle fuel truck, or call the governemnt to tell them your simply not paying taxes this year. But unless you find a REAL way to reduce cost (does not include the fact that you dont have notes) you cannot lower your rates.

3) There is not a single part of the overall construction industry that has the brain twisting battle of iron ownership like we do. Think about it. If you anticipate you'll run a shovel 1000 hours this year, and you dont, your costs of ownership actually go up, and of course vise versa.

4) GCs, Developers, PMs, and Supers dont care if your alive (and I do mean physicly alive) in a year from now. They are tossing the meat into the ring and the nastiest dog gets to eat. But if the little A holes that overleveraged thier business by buying every concievable piece of iron out there all on notes didnt do that, they wouldnt be so desparate to lower thier price so they can watch it work tommorrow at half the normal price.

Just a final point of reference. I personaly know roofing and siding contractors, whos largest piece of iron is a van, grossing 3.5 to 4 mil per year and making $400,000 as thier pay (probably not this year). Thats on top of profit. (you remember profit, right?) They work out of a rented $2000.00 per month property and garage and have small office staffs. So how is it we (iron owners) are always asked to lower our price?? How is it we're always told "No, your price is too high" by people that used us for years??

And now a word from our sponser: Back during the last great recession (late 80s to early 90s) there were a great deal of iron auctions in my area. Since there was little work to do, i regularly attended these auctions for thier entertainament value. I ran into a fellow i hadnt seen in a number of years that had been a local excavating contractor. I made the usual small talk asking how he and the family were. Then I asked what he was doing these days. He told me he had gotton out of the excavating contracting business and purchased a piece of land up north a ways, subdivided it, and built a road and built 1 house per year, sold it, made a profit, then moved onto the next.

He didnt use his own iron. He subed it out. Heres a guy, whos almost entire adult life had been as an owner of excavating equipment, doing a job he could have easily done himself, subbing out the part of the work he knew the most about. So I asked:why??

His reply: For what these clowns were getting to do the job, he couldnt be bothered. He went onto to say the most memerable words I have ever heard about this industry. DO YOU KNOW WHATS WRONG WITH THIS INDUSTRY?? ITS FULL OF DITCH DIGGERS WITH DITCH DIGGER HEADS
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Last edited by Vinny; 03-11-2009 at 07:29 AM.
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Old 03-11-2009, 08:56 AM   #8
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


I do feel bad for the small guy big equipment owner/ops. Just know your not alone in asking to get prices reduced, i deal with it all the time just as everybody in our profession does, and like mentioned above i've structured my business to have as low of overhead as i can have in light of it..but it's a double edged sword since now we're stagnent, stuck where we're at and can go no further until i take on debt in order to get more equipment, more trucks, hire more guys, and try to make more sales....but you know what, just like 3 yrs ago when we had a stellar year with triple our average sales....with the added work came the added overhead so i actually did'nt get anywhere, actually went backwords to be brutally honest.

I have a very good freind we're currently working for and am always his guy for doing work, he runs dumps and pups for the main line of work, and has the big ex, min ex, huge front loader, med front loader, grader, skidder, etc...and we were talking shop the other day and it sums up what you guys are saying. As he told me- "What so screwd up about this trucking is the fact, i spend $75K for a dump, $125K for a ex, pay fuel tax, road tax, crazy insurance premiums per month, along with payroll and everything else to keep the big trucks serviced and working and they bill out at $125/hr for the ex and $80/hr for the truck. Okay, so now i have my 1T truck which cost me $30K, a 5th wheel trailer that cost me $10K, and a skidder that cost me $25K...and it bills out for $75/hr, operating cost is next to nothing. So how can a guy keep going with all this overhead for the big equipment and only ba able to bill out the same rate as the small equipment..it does'nt make any sense."

for the record, he added 2 dump trucks to the fleet last year he got from a guy going out of business and was able to get them bought right, but he said once all the dust settles, at the end of the year each truck i have only brings in an extra $10K to the company. He mentioned this since i was always giving him crap for having all sorts of toys along with his equipment so i'd say i'm buying a dump truck so i can be rich too (i also do alot for another small fleet dump truck operation and he's spending money like crazy now too) and this guy just laughs and said i better buy two since it takes two trucks to break even. Just his fuel bill last year was $134K last season with the price hike we all felt, and said that was basically $50K more than the year before, so that was realistically $50K profit he lost due to inflated prices.

I feel your pain, i deal with it myself, it's been 9 years since i've increased our labor rates, and material prices have just gone up that much it makes selling jobs hard enough, but i live low key because i have to, i have no debt other than my house so on one hand i'm happy waking up knowing if i dont work, so be it, i honestly dont have to, when i do a job, most of it is pocket money, but on the same token i'm stuck since i cant expand without debt, and given the markets i just dont know if it's worth it right now. I was considering adding a skidder, trailer, and multiple attachments..going into hock for it to have more opportunites, but like stated above with you boyz, i dont know if it's worth it right now. We're all in a tough gig work wise, and when you have people telling you your bottom line pricing is still too high, it pizzes you off...cuz you can stay home and go broke, no sense in wearing out your equipment while doing it
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Old 03-11-2009, 03:47 PM   #9
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
The point from the thread starter is getting missed

This economy is starting to take a toll on my head and I need to say a little about it.

Yea, its nice to keep up on older iron and not have notes but when you get down to it, it probably costs almost as much in up keep to have older iron as it does to have newer iron with less hours. In addition to that what about the lost time to hunt down parts for 25 year old iron that hasent been produced in 10 years. Theres a cost of time which = money.

This business (like any business) shouldnt have to always be about how cheap can I do it. And there are plenty of related businesses that couldnt care less if we (as iron owners) are hurting.

Case in point: I recently needed a new trans for one of my RD690 macks. I checked several sources for rebuilts from Connecticut, to Philly, to Boston, to Jersey. I found plenty of units out there and the places i called had a real lack of business. Slow as can be and really wanted to sell a rebuilt one on the shelf or they'd rebuild mine. But, Guess what? The price was practicaly the same over the 6 places and the almost 300 mile radius I searched. They were all at $3200.00 plus / minus. Not 1 guy said "hey, I'm slow right now, why not cut Vinny a deal just to keep my people busy"

The bottom line: It was what it was. This is what it costs. So I bought it. I could have saved $1000 by buying a used one but no one can say if thier used one was any good.

My points:
1) ANYONE in this part of the construction industry needs to realize and understand thier costs. If you dont get it, get help or get the F out.

2) Realize you cant lower your price with out doing something to lower it. Either accept the fact you'll loose money this year, lower your employees pay, rob the parts department at your equipment dealer, hijack a F n deisle fuel truck, or call the governemnt to tell them your simply not paying taxes this year. But unless you find a REAL way to reduce cost (does not include the fact that you dont have notes) you cannot lower your rates.

3) There is not a single part of the overall construction industry that has the brain twisting battle of iron ownership like we do. Think about it. If you anticipate you'll run a shovel 1000 hours this year, and you dont, your costs of ownership actually go up, and of course vise versa.

4) GCs, Developers, PMs, and Supers dont care if your alive (and I do mean physicly alive) in a year from now. They are tossing the meat into the ring and the nastiest dog gets to eat. But if the little A holes that overleveraged thier business by buying every concievable piece of iron out there all on notes didnt do that, they wouldnt be so desparate to lower thier price so they can watch it work tommorrow at half the normal price.

Just a final point of reference. I personaly know roofing and siding contractors, whos largest piece of iron is a van, grossing 3.5 to 4 mil per year and making $400,000 as thier pay (probably not this year). Thats on top of profit. (you remember profit, right?) They work out of a rented $2000.00 per month property and garage and have small office staffs. So how is it we (iron owners) are always asked to lower our price?? How is it we're always told "No, your price is too high" by people that used us for years??

And now a word from our sponser: Back during the last great recession (late 80s to early 90s) there were a great deal of iron auctions in my area. Since there was little work to do, i regularly attended these auctions for thier entertainament value. I ran into a fellow i hadnt seen in a number of years that had been a local excavating contractor. I made the usual small talk asking how he and the family were. Then I asked what he was doing these days. He told me he had gotton out of the excavating contracting business and purchased a piece of land up north a ways, subdivided it, and built a road and built 1 house per year, sold it, made a profit, then moved onto the next.

He didnt use his own iron. He subed it out. Heres a guy, whos almost entire adult life had been as an owner of excavating equipment, doing a job he could have easily done himself, subbing out the part of the work he knew the most about. So I asked:why??

His reply: For what these clowns were getting to do the job, he couldnt be bothered. He went onto to say the most memerable words I have ever heard about this industry. DO YOU KNOW WHATS WRONG WITH THIS INDUSTRY?? ITS FULL OF DITCH DIGGERS WITH DITCH DIGGER HEADS
Vin, don't hold back........tell us how you really feel.
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Old 03-11-2009, 04:49 PM   #10
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


This thread i read this a.m. is ironic. I was over completing a transaction with my trucking friend this afternoon, and he gets a phone call from another trucking guy a town over (we have many small towns all within 10 minute drive time) and the phone call got heated, my guy was getting in this other fella's azz something fierce. Call gets over, buddy is ranting, "this stupid SOB wants to lower trucking rates since fuel is down, WTF is he thinking, tires are'nt cheaper, oil is'nt cheaper, insurance is'nt cheaper, hourly shop rates at the garage have gone up, how the F..k does he think he's going to stay in business dropping to a rate we used to run years ago just because fuel is cheaper" So then he calls another guy, this guy too was going to drop rates a few bucks and hour and also on the tonage rate....so now my guy is fuming.

So he took over as being a mock union boss, set a time/date with all the drivers in the area like he used to do years ago, he got a time the DOT person could show up to go over any new laws/changes the state has made, but more importantly to get EVERYBODY on the same page wage wise. I WISH in the construction end there was only a few guys around so we could self regulate like these guys do, but it only makes sense, this way their not screwing eachother out of work and money, since if they all work together, they're bigger than the contractor/s that hire them since the price is the price, not price shopping under cutting eachother to get a load. He even went so far as to break it down % wise so these idiots on the other end of the phone pushing to drop prices could get a grip.

40% for business overhead/operation
20% for fuel
25% for maintenance/upkeep on the trucks
15% for depreciation

All coming out of a standard $75/hr rate on the truck. So if nothing else, if your having trouble in your area and maybe it's a small enough group working your sites you too could make the calls, have an informal meeting amoungst yourself to keep your pricing the same so your not fighting low ball mentality. Many of the other guys simply wont start a truck for under $XX-***/hr and they dont need to the trucks to run to make money since theyr'e side gigs, but for the little guy that has trucks needed to pay bills, if you could head off hack mentality/lowballer tactic now it'll pay off later this season.
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Old 03-11-2009, 05:22 PM   #11
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


Just don't invite anyone who has loose lips. I think there is a Federal law against that kind of meeting. Especially in transportation.
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Old 03-11-2009, 05:28 PM   #12
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


I understand that and i'm sure they do too, but i think it's a joke coming from running a shop for an OTR trucking company years ago, this is one industry (trucking) that the government reallllly fugged up to put it mildly. So call it a federal offense, i call it doing what's necessary to make a living with all the costs associated with trying to keep trucks on the road.

Pretty bad when i can bill out my old 93 F250 with the blade at the same rate as you guys with a rolling money pit and the crazy taxes and fees your required to pay to put it on the road....somebody dropped the ball somewhere when you can only charge the same rate with a big dump truck as you do with a POS 4 wheeler.
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Old 03-11-2009, 08:21 PM   #13
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


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So call it a federal offense, i call it doing what's necessary to make a living with all the costs associated with trying to keep trucks on the road.
.
no ... it's called "price fixing" Josh ...



I'm not judging anyone (swear) but it's NO different than some guy using illegals or some guy not paying taxes.
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Old 03-11-2009, 09:02 PM   #14
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


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no ... it's called "price fixing" Josh ...



I'm not judging anyone (swear) but it's NO different than some guy using illegals or some guy not paying taxes.
WTF???? That's called low balling.

Lemme ask you this Dirt, have you ever heard of the Home Builders Association? It's a network group of new home builders that get together and this is EXACTLY what they do, they work together to keep prices on an even keel so they're not forced to literally cut their own throats and drive down market prices into the gutter, and it's completely legal and has groups country wide. What they do in the association is no different than what these owner ops are doing...taking care of themselves since it works like this:

Contractor calls ABC trucking that charges them $75/hr
next job contractor calls 123 trucking and finds out they only charge $70/hr so they use them.
now ABC trucking is wondering why the heck they're not working or getting jobs, finds out 123 trucking is hiring out for $70/hr so now ABC trucking calls contractor and says they can do the job for $68/hr...and now ABC trucking is busy again and 123 trucking is stuck holding their dycks wondering why they're slow, so now they drop their rate to $65/hr to get the work

so on and so forth driving market prices into the gutter and eventually making it so their operations are'nt sustainable and then companies are forced to go under thanks to greed of trying to get work to keep the doors open even if it means doing it for next to nothing, since something is better than nothing right???

So now 123 trucking has drug the market into the gutter, realized they cant stay in business so they close shop, and what they've now done is left the chit market they created for the long term boyz to swim in and try to bring back to a wage that affords them money to stay in business for the long haul.

All the guys here that have been around, and ESSPECIALLY in the trucking industry know full and well, people can call price fixing all they want, the simple fact of the matter is the trucking industry took a HUGE blow many years ago when the government stepped in and tried to regulate to keep pricing low since the country simply will NOT funtion without the trucks on the road as they move america...we ALL needs these truck, and the government calls price fixing since they dont want these boys earning what they should be to operate effeicently since it will drive the cost of product up as well....take a SERIOUS look at last year for a prime example, DIESEL prices were obnoxious, and NOTHING in the world moves without diesel fuel be it containter ships, trains, semi's, and any other form of transportation used to move the items we buy/consume.

then businesses building new warehouses/factories, the contractors equipment all runs on diesel so with the price increase in fuel, they pass it along to the customer they're delievering too hence why EVERYTHING we buy now is priced substantially higher than it was 2 years ago...all because the government wants to regulate what these boyz charge, so they're STUCK working for rates from many many years ago though the cost for them to operate has gone up dramtically severly cutting into their profits..SEVERLY.

It would be like Dirt Digger Pool being told it cant charge more than $***XX to install a pool, and now 10-15yrs later, everything around you has increased in price from insurance, work comp, equipment, clothes, food, etc...and you can still only charge the same rate established years ago...so now you went from making good money years ago to now only being able to scrape by...this is EXACTLY what these boys with the big trucks and big toys are dealing with today, so cry your azz off all you want about price fixing/price gouging, these guys are what makes the world go round, you start putting them in a position so they cant afford to operate and forced to shut the doors, it's going to have a HUGE effet on the world economy much more so than what your seeing now. These guys are just SMART enough to work together under the radar so they're not forcing each other to cut their own wrists.

If you dont get it after reading this, your clueless.
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Old 03-11-2009, 10:24 PM   #15
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


lol - you know something ... you are the ONLY person that I know that can write a longer post than I can (and mine only seem long due to my spacing)


You are SO putting lipstick on the pig here - and seem shocked when I don't want to take it to prom


You justify PRICE FIXING because "oh, the trucking industry took a hit ..." etc.


show me how this is NOT price fixing - and I'll certainly hand you game, set, and match on the topic. But, from what you're describing - this is, well "price fixing"

and again, not judging these guys.

It's just that, well - it's against the law and creates an uneven playing field.


Just like how a contractor might use illegal immigrants --- it causes an uneven playing field. Or doesn't pay taxes ... again, uneven playing field.

By your logic, a home builder who was facing hard times would justify hiring illegals because he could save money --- afterall, people need homes!!! People need the homebuilder!! The world depends on him. So he justifies hiring illegals.

one's just as bad as another

and no - not all home builder associations do this ...


OR --- maybe I am clueless???
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Old 03-12-2009, 05:46 AM   #16
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


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maybe I am clueless???
Pretty well sums it up, they just keep you around becuase your fun to laugh at. To let ya know, weather you'll admit it or not, you've priced fixed yourself, all of us have/do. When you call up a buddy, freind, colleuge and ask "hey, what are you guys getting for this" that's price fixing, so before you spout off to much, be sure to check yourself first
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Old 03-12-2009, 10:15 AM   #17
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


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Pretty well sums it up, they just keep you around becuase your fun to laugh at.


You know, I like you too much to fire back with any insults here.




But, I'm afraid you're wrong - not everyone attends meetings to figure out what the market prices will be. If that we're true, you wouldn't see so many "How Much Per Sq. Foot" threads
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Old 03-12-2009, 12:32 PM   #18
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


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Originally Posted by dirt diggler View Post
You know, I like you too much to fire back with any insults here.




But, I'm afraid you're wrong - not everyone attends meetings to figure out what the market prices will be. If that we're true, you wouldn't see so many "How Much Per Sq. Foot" threads
That's why it's near impossible to work together in the remodeling sector since there are never two jobs alike, everything has it's own problems and it just takes the school of hard knocks to learn how good you and your crew is to sort through issues, and how smart you are and how much experience you have to anticipate problems you've delt with before, BUT we still talk amoungst ourselves here locally. We had some big britches contractor from out out state overseeing 12- 12plex units being remodeled inside/outside, the only thing left intact was wall framing and roof framing, everything else getting replaced.

There were 10 of us invited to the meeting to bid the project, on the break we all went outside to BS since we either see or have worked on jobs over the years and naturally we all start throwing numbers on aspects of this huge undertaking...this big britches GC walks out to STS with us and notices we're all talking about the job and says, "your not supposed to talk to the competition" we just laughed and one of the guys spoke up and said, competition? this town is too small and there plenty of work to be done by us all so if we dont get your job, it's no sweat off anybodies nutz here and he walked away since we all knew whomever won the multi million dollar job we'd all get a piece of the pie regardless since it was too much work in too short of a time frame...and the outspoken contractor walked away and got in his truck and left. Point being we stuck together since we all know they were looking for bottle barrel work, none of us were interested in bottom feeding when we all had plenty of work then and now that losing this job was no big deal, but we were going to ruin the market rates just to win a job since we're the ones living here and stuck with the mess once these out of state fools come and go...much like storm chasers, they leave a flood of garbage in theri wake us locals are forced to fix and clean up.

If it makes you sleep better at night thinking it's price fixing go ahead, anybody that been in the game with success will call it common sense, you NEVER drop your rates, because i've never seen items for our overhead go down, and with these trucking boyz, just because fuel is lower sure the heck does'nt mean everything else they need to pay for is cheaper as well you scratch my back, i scratch yours, you want to ruin a market, your cutting your own throat..simple as that. we ALL talk to our peers, always been that way..and like you said, one only needs to look at all the what do i charge threads...that's price fixing too then.
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Old 03-17-2009, 11:24 AM   #19
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


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The point from the thread starter is getting missed

This economy is starting to take a toll on my head and I need to say a little about it.

Yea, its nice to keep up on older iron and not have notes but when you get down to it, it probably costs almost as much in up keep to have older iron as it does to have newer iron with less hours. In addition to that what about the lost time to hunt down parts for 25 year old iron that hasent been produced in 10 years. Theres a cost of time which = money.
Well, we are lucky that we are able to do everything in house. If we had to pay someone to do the work, then it would be a total waste. Not sure yet, but I am guessing that we will have about $3,000 in parts and materials when done. Not bad when she can easily last us another 10 years. If things were good and work was plentiful, we would have a newer truck sitting at our shop.
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Old 03-17-2009, 11:51 AM   #20
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Re: Ready To Stay Home


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Originally Posted by rino1494 View Post
Well, we are lucky that we are able to do everything in house. If we had to pay someone to do the work, then it would be a total waste. Not sure yet, but I am guessing that we will have about $3,000 in parts and materials when done. Not bad when she can easily last us another 10 years. If things were good and work was plentiful, we would have a newer truck sitting at our shop.
Same here. I typically buy used and fix EVERYTHING in house. By the time I get done, I have essentially a brand new truck, skidsteer, dozer, etc. for the price of parts. In the end when things are slow, I am not making payments. However, if business was booming for 10yrs at a whack, then I would think about stepping into a payment so that I could be on the job all the time and not tinkering in the shop. It's sord of a case by case thing, but for me used works best. I did buy my excavator brand new, and that was good, but for the most part payments are usually higher than my maintenance costs.........with employees who are rough on stuff, then new is probably the only way to go. It all depends, but I'm with Rino as far as keeping the older stuff up to snuff for longer periods of time to save on payments. Our government wants us to be in debt, but there is a balance on what you are actually saving in taxes vs. what you are paying in interest. Everyone knows what their business needs to be efficient, and for me as a smaller owner operator, taking care of what I have frees me up to expand my fleet rather than keep replacing.

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