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Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings

 
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Old 02-13-2016, 09:10 AM   #1
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Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


We just started a new subdivision that will require 2" press. sewer pipe. Did same time of job a few years ago and used compression fittings. Wasn't all that impressed with them and debating fusing the pipe this time.

Only problem I see is that we'll be putting in 14 lateral tees in 800' of pipe and it seems to me that production will slow down quite a bit waiting for pipe to cool down after fusing.

Line will have to be air tested so we'll prob. leave any connection exposed so it'll be easier to find if there is a leak.

Just looking for some opinions
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Old 02-13-2016, 11:58 PM   #2
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


Maybe Flared ends?

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Old 02-14-2016, 05:29 PM   #3
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


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Maybe Flared ends?
By Flared ends are you meaning flanged connections?
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Old 02-14-2016, 05:38 PM   #4
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


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Originally Posted by Upchuck View Post
We just started a new subdivision that will require 2" press. sewer pipe. Did same time of job a few years ago and used compression fittings. Wasn't all that impressed with them and debating fusing the pipe this time.

Only problem I see is that we'll be putting in 14 lateral tees in 800' of pipe and it seems to me that production will slow down quite a bit waiting for pipe to cool down after fusing.

Line will have to be air tested so we'll prob. leave any connection exposed so it'll be easier to find if there is a leak.

Just looking for some opinions
Are you looking to butt fusion weld these pipe? If so, I would be concerned about the welds being a catch point, but probably no different than a push joint pipe. As far as testing and leaving fuses exposed, you could probably do a majority of your fabrication above ground, and air test that way. This way you know everything is good. Then do your official test once installed and buried.

As far as cool time, 2 inch pipe, in say 55 degree temperatures, even up in to the 80s, has a realistic cool time of 5-10 minutes. If you have a ton of fab work you can always get a second saddle, and while you are waiting for the first fuse to cool, you can be making the second fuse with the other saddle.

The other option would be electrofusion couplings. While more expensive, they do speed things up a tad. You have to have the fusion box though. It comes with a scraper to prep the pipe, and like the butt fusions, you are supposed to clean the scraped area with rubbing alcohol. Then you slide the electrofusion coupling on to the pieces to be joined, hook up the electrodes, scan the bar code, the box figures air temp for heat and cool time, press the yes button twice, and the box zaps the fitting, heating the metal coils inside the coupling up, melting the hdpe inside the coupling, and you are done.
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Old 02-14-2016, 06:03 PM   #5
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


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By Flared ends are you meaning flanged connections?
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Old 02-14-2016, 06:09 PM   #6
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


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Im not seeing anything for HDPE which is what I'm assuming is being discussed by the cooling time statement
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Old 02-14-2016, 07:11 PM   #7
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


So you are plumbing the sewers from a swamp up to a lift station?

Won't you be using wye's instead of tees?, maybe a double wye?

The specs don't call out the technology they want used?
No city, county inspectors?

The fused connections would seem to grossly simplify your materials list. and cut waste pipe to single digit percentages.

Take a rainday and go watch someone that knows what they're are doing. Or call the welding machine maker up for some video classes on how to plumb....
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Old 02-15-2016, 06:08 PM   #8
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


[QUOTE=JDavis21835;4314305]By Flared ends are you meaning flanged connections?[/QUOTE

I'm talking about fusing plastic pipe. I assume you're talking about flared ends for copper.
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Old 02-15-2016, 06:20 PM   #9
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


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So you are plumbing the sewers from a swamp up to a lift station?

Won't you be using wye's instead of tees?, maybe a double wye?

The specs don't call out the technology they want used?
No city, county inspectors?

The fused connections would seem to grossly simplify your materials list. and cut waste pipe to single digit percentages.

Take a rainday and go watch someone that knows what they're are doing. Or call the welding machine maker up for some video classes on how to plumb....
The houses will have individual pumps tying into 2" pipe discharging into existing manhole.

Plans calls for tees not wyes.

Specs allow for compression fittings (which we've used) or fused connections. Everything is inspected by town so plenty of oversight.

Waste shouldn't be much different since we can use left over pipe sections from tee to treebelt for house connections.

I've seen the gas company fuse pipe multiple times. They usually do 4" mains opposed to 2". It seems like they take more time but they are a utility and production isn't always a concern.

Always looking for different ways to do things and figured someone on this site might have some experience fusing pipe and share the opinions.
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Old 02-15-2016, 06:23 PM   #10
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


Quote:
Originally Posted by JDavis21835 View Post
Are you looking to butt fusion weld these pipe? If so, I would be concerned about the welds being a catch point, but probably no different than a push joint pipe. As far as testing and leaving fuses exposed, you could probably do a majority of your fabrication above ground, and air test that way. This way you know everything is good. Then do your official test once installed and buried.

As far as cool time, 2 inch pipe, in say 55 degree temperatures, even up in to the 80s, has a realistic cool time of 5-10 minutes. If you have a ton of fab work you can always get a second saddle, and while you are waiting for the first fuse to cool, you can be making the second fuse with the other saddle.

The other option would be electrofusion couplings. While more expensive, they do speed things up a tad. You have to have the fusion box though. It comes with a scraper to prep the pipe, and like the butt fusions, you are supposed to clean the scraped area with rubbing alcohol. Then you slide the electrofusion coupling on to the pieces to be joined, hook up the electrodes, scan the bar code, the box figures air temp for heat and cool time, press the yes button twice, and the box zaps the fitting, heating the metal coils inside the coupling up, melting the hdpe inside the coupling, and you are done.
Thanks. I would be renting a fusion box. I assume you need it for either type of fusing you're describing.
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Old 02-15-2016, 10:11 PM   #11
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


would they allow a schedule 80 pvc? SW them all?
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Old 02-16-2016, 06:26 PM   #12
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


I'm trying to get my head around 14 sewer lift pumps running into just One 2" "main"? so one back flow valve fails, one house has 17 houses worth of sewage in the basement?

How many houses can run a 2" main before you switch to a 2.5" or 3"?

Last edited by Fouthgeneration; 02-16-2016 at 06:55 PM.
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Old 02-16-2016, 07:25 PM   #13
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


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I'm trying to get my head around 14 sewer lift pumps running into just One 2" "main"? so one back flow valve fails, one house has 17 houses worth of sewage in the basement?

How many houses can run a 2" main before you switch to a 2.5" or 3"?
The design shows each house with exterior pump chamber with about 60 gallons reserve. I don't care for that so we will use 1000 gallon precast pump chamber with one backflow preventer in tank and another in tree belt. Also, calls for a shut-off at tree belt.

The way it has been explained to me is that the 2" main is always full and as each house pump works the waste in the line is pushed out. Picture making sausage if you ever seen it done.

Don't know how many more houses before the main would be upsized. We don't design them, just install them.
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Old 02-16-2016, 07:30 PM   #14
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


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The design shows each house with exterior pump chamber with about 60 gallons reserve. I don't care for that so we will use 1000 gallon precast pump chamber with one backflow preventer in tank and another in tree belt. Also, calls for a shut-off at tree belt.



The way it has been explained to me is that the 2" main is always full and as each house pump works the waste in the line is pushed out. Picture making sausage if you ever seen it done.



Don't know how many more houses before the main would be upsized. We don't design them, just install them.

That is basically how the sewer system works in the city next door to me. Everyone's step pump pressurizes the main line. It's kind of a crappy setup.
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Old 02-16-2016, 07:34 PM   #15
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


Can you "legally" Siamese any two Units to use a common chamber on the lot lines.... I'm a cheapskate...

I'm getting pretty high flow # at the discharge end of the 2" common pipe.

If its stamped by an engineer, drive on.
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Old 02-16-2016, 07:36 PM   #16
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


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would they allow a schedule 80 pvc? SW them all?
I'll have to ask. We've done single houses that way. Not sure if would make a difference for multiple houses with low pressure system.
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Old 02-16-2016, 08:24 PM   #17
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


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Thanks. I would be renting a fusion box. I assume you need it for either type of fusing you're describing.
This is butt fusion equipment
http://www.machinio.com/listings/739...-united-states

This is electro fusion equipment, I assume this is what you mean when you say rent the box.
http://www.centralplastics.com/en_US...c-machine.html
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Old 02-23-2016, 05:11 PM   #18
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


Not a force main expert by any means but the engineering on this sounds suspect. Tees instead of wyes, socket fusions, etc...maybe its just been a long time since I've done sewer work but i was always taught that the flow line needs to be as smooth as possible. I believe socket fusion leaves rough spots at the joints for solids to get hung up on. Like I said, its been a while since I've done sanitary work
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Old 03-06-2016, 09:47 AM   #19
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


Always used compression fittings, not to say that is the best way, just what is spec'ed.
Years ago ran into the same situation with a 14 lot subdivision; that setup "homeran" 2" pressure lines from the individual homes' pump 200-800' to a 18" gravity main with check valves. I think we bought 2" in 1000' coils so the only joints were at the terminatations. I remember thinking the gravity line has an issue and the check valve sticks open, it won't be pretty. My solution maybe would be 4" gravity lines from each house to a pump station below the lowest house, 3" force main up to the 18" gravity. Advantages: isolate homes from the pressure line, one big pump vs. 14 little ones. Disadvantage: Some homeowners put things down the drain that even grinder pumps have a problem with, hard to figure out the culprit in a community system.

If you debur properly I don't think you would have a problem with 'hangups'.
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Old 03-08-2016, 12:35 PM   #20
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Re: Fusing Pipe Vs Compression Fittings


Very different than whats code here. Always an interesting read.

Here's what we have to do in NYC: (as far as I know anyhow, Im not a master plumber)
cast iron bells' sealed with oakum and lead (when using cast iron below ground)
cannot use hubless on cast iron below ground
Ploypropylene and PVDF piping must use electric fusing/fusion tools. (cant fuse together either)

Lead and oakum is what I see most often for the home to city lines. There's not too many youngin's who know how to do it either.

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