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Help Explaining These Bids

 
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Old 03-12-2018, 04:03 PM   #1
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Help Explaining These Bids


Hi,
would you guys mind explaining the different equipment options in these bids to me?
I'm in the Boise, ID area and we're building a house for ourselves. I expect we'll live in it for about 8 more years.

I'm not to concerned about the cost, thats not my main objective, just trying to figure out why one suggests a 13 SEER and the other up to a 21 SEER?

My biggest question is why does the one say I'll need another heat source below 32* What the heck does that mean?

And I understand they all do a Manual J but what about the Manual D? Is that standard or do only the better outfits do them?

Thanks!
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Old 03-12-2018, 04:38 PM   #2
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Re: Help Explaining These Bids


I can answer part of your question. Some heat pumps don't produce any heat when it's below a certain temp. So on the coldest days, you're stuck using regular electric heat, which is about 1/3 as efficient. Combined with the cold temps, you can have a big electric bill that month.

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Old 03-13-2018, 10:32 AM   #3
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Re: Help Explaining These Bids


Stay away from Infinity. They are dealer controlled, and finding a qualified service person will not be easy.... If gas is available, it's a "no brainer"

I would go for a 96% variable speed 2 stage furnace coupled with the 16 Seer. Personally, I like the 80% 2 stage furnaces. But, if you are leaning towards the higher efficiency equipment, might as well go with the 96% variable speed.
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Old 03-13-2018, 07:11 PM   #4
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Re: Help Explaining These Bids


Natural Gas or L.P. back up heat when you have 100 days/nights it goes under 32 degrees.... Don't you want it(gas) anyway for cooking and cheap Hot water? resale value, and fuel for a home Generator set?

No ground source Heat pumps? soil too rocky, or tiny lot? More install costs, a LOT fewer hours a year on Electric Heat.
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Old 03-13-2018, 10:12 PM   #5
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Re: Help Explaining These Bids


Sorry, I didn't think to mention, I live out in the country. No NG.

Whew, I haven't even considered a ground source heat pump! Thats probably out of my price range....
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Old 03-13-2018, 11:35 PM   #6
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Re: Help Explaining These Bids


Quote:
Originally Posted by flashheatingand View Post
Stay away from Infinity. They are dealer controlled, and finding a qualified service person will not be easy.... If gas is available, it's a "no brainer"

I would go for a 96% variable speed 2 stage furnace coupled with the 16 Seer. Personally, I like the 80% 2 stage furnaces. But, if you are leaning towards the higher efficiency equipment, might as well go with the 96% variable speed.
It's an electric furnace...so it's 100% efficient.

I don't get why you hate on Carrier, it's a brilliant system. Sure it's dealer controlled but isn't most flagship products like Rheem and Trane?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post
Sorry, I didn't think to mention, I live out in the country. No NG.

Whew, I haven't even considered a ground source heat pump! Thats probably out of my price range....
I recently helped a friend install this same setup in his place, 14 Seer with 100A electric backup, replacing an oil furnace, very happy with the result. All air to air heat pumps need backup because once it get's really cold the heat pump doesn't do cock-all and the electric has to pick up the slack.

The infinity system is pretty clever, it uses and external temperature and humidity system and varies the compressor speed to maximize efficiency. On a traditional setup your furnace only kicks in after the heat-pump runs and fails to increase the temperature the required amount. The infinity system already knows what to do to maximize efficiency. That's why they say "Up to 21 Seer" Because when the exterior temps is JUST right they can hit that level of efficiency.

I have a client who has one connected to a TED5000 and monitors the electrical consumption on the furnace as well as the compressor and fan. Thus far it's been almost bang on what the Infinity tracker says. I'm really impressed.

So is it worth while? Will it pay for itself? Well you can calculate the payback, it may be worth it. But putting money aside I can gurantee the Carrier Infinity will offer better comfort because it can very gradually change temperature with modulating fan speed and compressor speed. You can't argue they don't offer improved comfort.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:09 AM   #7
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Re: Help Explaining These Bids


Looks like Boise/Idaho could use a couple of large bore pipelines to lower N.G and L.P. prices, and a new refinery would save the State billions over the next few decades in cheaper diesel and gasoline supplies....

If your water table is close to the surface you could excavate/trench in a horizontal "field" or drill "wells" with a Universal drilling/boring rig.

20 Kilo Watts of heat is ~68 KBtus of heat out of the earth for 100 days X .667 1600 hrs x 68 KBtus = 108.8 Mega Btus/ Specific heat of subsoil ~0.5 X 3200 lbs x -15 degree Fahrenheit (loss) = 4533.33 yard of heat source, cube root of 4533 = or 150' x 150' x 6' field, If there is some water flow through the field, the area could be much smaller as the water greatly lowers the R values of the soil and the water flow itself brings in more heat.

What is your back up heat plan if the Grid blacks out for week in winter time?
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:58 AM   #8
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Re: Help Explaining These Bids


Quote:
Originally Posted by Inner10 View Post
It's an electric furnace...so it's 100% efficient.

I don't get why you hate on Carrier, it's a brilliant system. Sure it's dealer controlled but isn't most flagship products like Rheem and Trane?



I recently helped a friend install this same setup in his place, 14 Seer with 100A electric backup, replacing an oil furnace, very happy with the result. All air to air heat pumps need backup because once it get's really cold the heat pump doesn't do cock-all and the electric has to pick up the slack.

The infinity system is pretty clever, it uses and external temperature and humidity system and varies the compressor speed to maximize efficiency. On a traditional setup your furnace only kicks in after the heat-pump runs and fails to increase the temperature the required amount. The infinity system already knows what to do to maximize efficiency. That's why they say "Up to 21 Seer" Because when the exterior temps is JUST right they can hit that level of efficiency.

I have a client who has one connected to a TED5000 and monitors the electrical consumption on the furnace as well as the compressor and fan. Thus far it's been almost bang on what the Infinity tracker says. I'm really impressed.

So is it worth while? Will it pay for itself? Well you can calculate the payback, it may be worth it. But putting money aside I can gurantee the Carrier Infinity will offer better comfort because it can very gradually change temperature with modulating fan speed and compressor speed. You can't argue they don't offer improved comfort.
I don't hate Carrier products. They are fine. Locally, the supply house is very good as well. Just, I ran into an issue once. With the product. I could not get technical assistance (Carrier protected was the company line). So, I advised the installing company. Turned out the other outfit (Carrier/Bryant) took over and did further damage.

I would not recommend any product that requires a "specialist", should things go amiss. Especially should one live far from town.

Regarding comfort, I think as an industry, we are overthinking it. Way too many variables, and the furnace / heat-pump are just a small piece of the puzzle.
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:08 AM   #9
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Re: Help Explaining These Bids


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post
Sorry, I didn't think to mention, I live out in the country. No NG.

Whew, I haven't even considered a ground source heat pump! That's probably out of my price range....
So you live in Deep Nampa. I still recommend Propane, with a heat pump. Ground source, still reliant on a "specialist", and should somebody dink around with the setup, and not know what they are doing, things get expensive.

Lennox equipment if fine. But, not crazy about the local supply house. Based on where you may be building, I would go York, Carrier, or Goodman.
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:34 AM   #10
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Re: Help Explaining These Bids


These bids mean that no matter which option you select you will get screwed anyway.
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Old 03-15-2018, 10:04 AM   #11
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Re: Help Explaining These Bids


Regarding the Manual J&D calcs, these are being required sometimes, depending on the local building department, and are supposed to be a very accurate way to figure out what the heating and cooling loads are accurately along with the correct sized ducts. They usually go along with doing Manual S heating and cooling equipment selection.

Heating and Air Conditioners shall be sized, designed and have their equipment selected using the following methods:
1. The heat loss and heat gain is established according to ANSI/ACCA 2 Manual J- 2004 (Residential Load Calculation), ASHRAE handbooks or other equivalent design software or methods.
2. Duct systems are sized according to ANSI/ACCA 1 Manual D- 2009 (Residential Duct Systems),
ASHRAE handbooks or other equivalent design software or methods.
3. Select heating and cooling equipment according to ANSI/ACCA 3 Manual S-2004 (Residential Equipment Selection).
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Old 03-16-2018, 09:25 AM   #12
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Re: Help Explaining These Bids


Excellent. I appreciate the input. Nice to see a local on here Flash!

I'm leaning towards the Infinity, mostly because with the layout of my house I'm concerned about keeping the temps balanced. The guest suite faces Southwest and we get some brutally hot afternoons.

Is that something I should worry about? Or is that where the Manual D comes in?

Here's the floorplan.
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Old 03-18-2018, 06:16 PM   #13
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Re: Help Explaining These Bids


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post
Excellent. I appreciate the input. Nice to see a local on here Flash!

I'm leaning towards the Infinity, mostly because with the layout of my house I'm concerned about keeping the temps balanced. The guest suite faces Southwest and we get some brutally hot afternoons.

Is that something I should worry about? Or is that where the Manual D comes in?

Here's the floorplan.
That has to do with manual D. It's your crib, you know what you want. Just, Propane is nice not only for heating, but cooking as well. If there are foodies in the house... I just like propane over gas, and the prices are about the same.
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Old 03-19-2018, 01:31 AM   #14
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Re: Help Explaining These Bids


Nice house, I'd X out the hallways from the garage to G room and the hallway to the MBRoom, and make the walk in closet larger, pantry, and laundry room bigger...

Consider agglomerating the Laundry room and Master closet, maybe a pass through?

maybe install interrupted awnings on the south windows to block heat gain in summer time?

Any under slab air ducts?

Lots of Perimeter to square footage ratio, spending some $ on HVAC here forever

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