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CO2 Heat Pumps.

 
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Old 11-03-2010, 07:06 PM   #1
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CO2 Heat Pumps.


Was reading the RSES journal the other day. There was an article on CO2 heat pumps. It was pretty interesting as the idea is that one can obtain a bit more heat from co2 @ lower temps. Anybody else read it?
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Old 11-03-2010, 07:33 PM   #2
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Re: CO2 Heat Pumps.


Yeah, I was looking it over last week. Between this and the new hydrocarbon replacement refrigerants, it’s sort of like what’s old is new again, but with improvements.
Apparently the C02 systems are popular in Europe, but are just starting to get attention over here. I imagine that in a few years, we will have to buy all new specialized tools and equipment to work on these systems.


BTW: It seems like that the article on brazing and soldering basics must have be for plumbers, since there doesn’t appear to be a nitrogen tank to be found anywhere in the pics. They do briefly mention it though in a paragraph titled “purging” near the end of the article.

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Old 11-03-2010, 10:19 PM   #3
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Re: CO2 Heat Pumps.


CO2 systems have been installed out here in socal on some markets for the refrigeration , i havnt got to work on one yet , but i am hoping soon i will
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Old 11-04-2010, 04:28 AM   #4
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Re: CO2 Heat Pumps.


In a few more years. I think they'll bring ammonia back again. As a new refrigerant.
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Old 11-04-2010, 09:05 AM   #5
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Re: CO2 Heat Pumps.


at this pace we'll be slinging 300lb ice cakes door to door. bring back any memories "clover"?
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Old 11-04-2010, 08:04 PM   #6
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Re: CO2 Heat Pumps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DuMass View Post
Yeah, I was looking it over last week. Between this and the new hydrocarbon replacement refrigerants, it’s sort of like what’s old is new again, but with improvements.
Apparently the C02 systems are popular in Europe, but are just starting to get attention over here. I imagine that in a few years, we will have to buy all new specialized tools and equipment to work on these systems.


BTW: It seems like that the article on brazing and soldering basics must have be for plumbers, since there doesn’t appear to be a nitrogen tank to be found anywhere in the pics. They do briefly mention it though in a paragraph titled “purging” near the end of the article.
I would imagine not too specialized. The way I was reading it, you are dealing with 1600 PSI, which is scary, but I am under the impression, that the principles are the same. I was lost once they started to get real technical, but in summary, I thought the concept was pretty cool.

The brazing article was a good one as well. It's nice to get a tech journal with some interesting tech stuff instead of stuff about brand X's new line of equipment, or some super high priced tool that may be cool, but aint no way I'm gonna buy.
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Old 11-04-2010, 08:07 PM   #7
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Re: CO2 Heat Pumps.


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In a few more years. I think they'll bring ammonia back again. As a new refrigerant.
wouldn't amonia be dangerous if the system was leaking? Why do you think it's possible that ammonia would be back?

It's funny you mention the ammonia thing. My primary supply house was saying that there is going to be a shortage of 410, aye yay yay
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Old 11-04-2010, 08:13 PM   #8
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Re: CO2 Heat Pumps.


Quote:
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at this pace we'll be slinging 300lb ice cakes door to door. bring back any memories "clover"?
Don't know about slinging 300lbs of ice, but I do recall shlepping pianos up three stories as a mover during the summer. Your post brought back those memories.
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Old 11-04-2010, 08:42 PM   #9
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Re: CO2 Heat Pumps.


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wouldn't amonia be dangerous if the system was leaking? Why do you think it's possible that ammonia would be back?

It's funny you mention the ammonia thing. My primary supply house was saying that there is going to be a shortage of 410, aye yay yay
Ammonia is dangerous to an extent. Its not pumped into the house though. Its only on the outdoor unit. So in some ways its safer then 22 or 410a.
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Old 11-06-2010, 05:49 PM   #10
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Re: CO2 Heat Pumps.


How you figure? let's say there is a leak, couldn't it become dangerous situation if installed in certain locations outside as well?

Well, I thought the article mentioned how co2 is a great method of heat transfer. It would be great if heat pumps could keep a home toasty @ 5 degrees with a h.s.p.f. of 750 zillion. I am a fan of heat pumps. At least as a supplemental heat for today.
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Old 11-06-2010, 08:29 PM   #11
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Re: CO2 Heat Pumps.


I will say that ammonia/water is common in RV refrigeration. The only problem is that when you get a leak in the welded system, you more often end up just replacing the refrigerator and the old one either goes off to be remanufactured or ends up in the recycle center. RV refrigeration sealed system service is basically a specialty trade all its own.
Those things can be pretty big bucks new and even the remanufactured units are not really cheap.
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Old 11-06-2010, 11:25 PM   #12
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Re: CO2 Heat Pumps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by flashheatingand View Post
How you figure? let's say there is a leak, couldn't it become dangerous situation if installed in certain locations outside as well?

Well, I thought the article mentioned how co2 is a great method of heat transfer. It would be great if heat pumps could keep a home toasty @ 5 degrees with a h.s.p.f. of 750 zillion. I am a fan of heat pumps. At least as a supplemental heat for today.
When the unit is on the roof. Very little risk from a leak. Unless it blows up.

There is an air to air heat pump that puts out heat at -30°F..
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Old 11-07-2010, 01:26 PM   #13
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Re: CO2 Heat Pumps.


Who?
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Old 11-08-2010, 08:33 AM   #14
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Re: CO2 Heat Pumps.


I was just checking out these Sanyo units. They claim it will still perform in temps as low as -25C [-13F]. That’s pretty low temp operation for a little resi unit. They are only available on the other side of the pond at this time though.
From what I've been reading, it looks like some of the Eco groups over here are already pissing and moaning about the possibility CO2 greenhouse gas emissions from system leaks. It seems they will never be happy with anything.

http://uk.sanyo.com/aircon/products/CO2-ECO-Heating-System/Introduction/
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Old 11-08-2010, 08:31 PM   #15
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Re: CO2 Heat Pumps.


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Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
In a few more years. I think they'll bring ammonia back again. As a new refrigerant.
Doubtful. You'll be running all over the place to repair refrigerant theft while EMTs go running around picking up refrigerant thieves suffering ammonia burns. Your techs will need a whole new set of training and PPEs to since it is much more dangerous to work with. It maybe cheap, but not really, because of more rigorous handling requirements.

Ammonia is a hot target for theft at farms, cold storage plants, rail cars, etc. They're thinking of doping with a bit of water, or additive to poison reactions needed for meth production, but the additives or water can not be added to refrigeration grade ammonia.

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Last edited by Electric_Light; 11-08-2010 at 08:37 PM.
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