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-   -   CO2 heat pumps. (https://www.contractortalk.com/f6/co2-heat-pumps-86857/)

flashheatingand 11-03-2010 07:06 PM

CO2 heat pumps.
 
Was reading the RSES journal the other day. There was an article on CO2 heat pumps. It was pretty interesting as the idea is that one can obtain a bit more heat from co2 @ lower temps. Anybody else read it?

DuMass 11-03-2010 07:33 PM

Yeah, I was looking it over last week. Between this and the new hydrocarbon replacement refrigerants, it’s sort of like what’s old is new again, but with improvements.
Apparently the C02 systems are popular in Europe, but are just starting to get attention over here. I imagine that in a few years, we will have to buy all new specialized tools and equipment to work on these systems.


BTW: It seems like that the article on brazing and soldering basics must have be for plumbers, since there doesn’t appear to be a nitrogen tank to be found anywhere in the pics. They do briefly mention it though in a paragraph titled “purging” near the end of the article.

hvacrman 11-03-2010 10:19 PM

CO2 systems have been installed out here in socal on some markets for the refrigeration , i havnt got to work on one yet , but i am hoping soon i will

beenthere 11-04-2010 04:28 AM

In a few more years. I think they'll bring ammonia back again. As a new refrigerant.

NickTech 11-04-2010 09:05 AM

at this pace we'll be slinging 300lb ice cakes door to door. bring back any memories "clover"? ;)

flashheatingand 11-04-2010 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuMass (Post 1040635)
Yeah, I was looking it over last week. Between this and the new hydrocarbon replacement refrigerants, it’s sort of like what’s old is new again, but with improvements.
Apparently the C02 systems are popular in Europe, but are just starting to get attention over here. I imagine that in a few years, we will have to buy all new specialized tools and equipment to work on these systems.


BTW: It seems like that the article on brazing and soldering basics must have be for plumbers, since there doesn’t appear to be a nitrogen tank to be found anywhere in the pics. They do briefly mention it though in a paragraph titled “purging” near the end of the article.

I would imagine not too specialized. The way I was reading it, you are dealing with 1600 PSI, which is scary, but I am under the impression, that the principles are the same. I was lost once they started to get real technical, but in summary, I thought the concept was pretty cool.

The brazing article was a good one as well. It's nice to get a tech journal with some interesting tech stuff instead of stuff about brand X's new line of equipment, or some super high priced tool that may be cool, but aint no way I'm gonna buy.

flashheatingand 11-04-2010 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beenthere (Post 1040885)
In a few more years. I think they'll bring ammonia back again. As a new refrigerant.

wouldn't amonia be dangerous if the system was leaking? Why do you think it's possible that ammonia would be back?

It's funny you mention the ammonia thing. My primary supply house was saying that there is going to be a shortage of 410, aye yay yay

flashheatingand 11-04-2010 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickTech (Post 1040963)
at this pace we'll be slinging 300lb ice cakes door to door. bring back any memories "clover"? ;)

Don't know about slinging 300lbs of ice, but I do recall shlepping pianos up three stories as a mover during the summer. Your post brought back those memories.

beenthere 11-04-2010 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flashheatingand (Post 1041358)
wouldn't amonia be dangerous if the system was leaking? Why do you think it's possible that ammonia would be back?

It's funny you mention the ammonia thing. My primary supply house was saying that there is going to be a shortage of 410, aye yay yay

Ammonia is dangerous to an extent. Its not pumped into the house though. Its only on the outdoor unit. So in some ways its safer then 22 or 410a.

flashheatingand 11-06-2010 05:49 PM

How you figure? let's say there is a leak, couldn't it become dangerous situation if installed in certain locations outside as well?

Well, I thought the article mentioned how co2 is a great method of heat transfer. It would be great if heat pumps could keep a home toasty @ 5 degrees with a h.s.p.f. of 750 zillion. I am a fan of heat pumps. At least as a supplemental heat for today.

DuMass 11-06-2010 08:29 PM

I will say that ammonia/water is common in RV refrigeration. The only problem is that when you get a leak in the welded system, you more often end up just replacing the refrigerator and the old one either goes off to be remanufactured or ends up in the recycle center. RV refrigeration sealed system service is basically a specialty trade all its own.
Those things can be pretty big bucks new and even the remanufactured units are not really cheap.

beenthere 11-06-2010 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flashheatingand (Post 1042460)
How you figure? let's say there is a leak, couldn't it become dangerous situation if installed in certain locations outside as well?

Well, I thought the article mentioned how co2 is a great method of heat transfer. It would be great if heat pumps could keep a home toasty @ 5 degrees with a h.s.p.f. of 750 zillion. I am a fan of heat pumps. At least as a supplemental heat for today.

When the unit is on the roof. Very little risk from a leak. Unless it blows up.

There is an air to air heat pump that puts out heat at -30°F..

flashheatingand 11-07-2010 01:26 PM

Who?

DuMass 11-08-2010 08:33 AM

I was just checking out these Sanyo units. They claim it will still perform in temps as low as -25C [-13F]. That’s pretty low temp operation for a little resi unit. They are only available on the other side of the pond at this time though.
From what I've been reading, it looks like some of the Eco groups over here are already pissing and moaning about the possibility CO2 greenhouse gas emissions from system leaks. It seems they will never be happy with anything. :rolleyes:

http://uk.sanyo.com/aircon/products/CO2-ECO-Heating-System/Introduction/

Electric_Light 11-08-2010 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beenthere (Post 1040885)
In a few more years. I think they'll bring ammonia back again. As a new refrigerant.

Doubtful. You'll be running all over the place to repair refrigerant theft while EMTs go running around picking up refrigerant thieves suffering ammonia burns. Your techs will need a whole new set of training and PPEs to since it is much more dangerous to work with. It maybe cheap, but not really, because of more rigorous handling requirements.

Ammonia is a hot target for theft at farms, cold storage plants, rail cars, etc. They're thinking of doping with a bit of water, or additive to poison reactions needed for meth production, but the additives or water can not be added to refrigeration grade ammonia.


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