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Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?

 
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Old 09-14-2014, 10:48 AM   #1
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Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


On an l shaped deck where a ledger is attached at two different locations it is my assumption that a tension tie must be used twice on each ledger for a total of 4. Is this correct?
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Old 09-14-2014, 10:56 AM   #2
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


If any at all.

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Old 09-14-2014, 12:46 PM   #3
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


Probably only one side if, like Dan mentioned you even need it.

Some jurisdictions re interpreting this part of the code to mean that the lateral restraining devices are not a requirement but can be used instead of the standard 1/2" lags into ledger. Sounds weird since you will use the lags to ledger anyway I know. but there it is just the same.

I would go to the BD and ask them there for their interpretation and what they will require regarding this. You might just save a hell of a lot of time on this and any upcoming project like it.

Andy.
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Old 09-15-2014, 03:57 PM   #4
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


Two on each. Thats how I would do it.
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Old 09-15-2014, 05:28 PM   #5
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


call me crazy but don't the perpendicular ledger attachments negate a need for any?????
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Old 09-15-2014, 06:41 PM   #6
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


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call me crazy but don't the perpendicular ledger attachments negate a need for any?????
Not necessarily. If the outside support beam fails on a deck it can literally rip the ledger off the house and take the rim with it. Obviously that's a BIG problem on most houses. A lateral tie to the interior joists transfer the load to the joists and it's a much stronger connection than the interior joist/rim connection.

In my area they have taken an interesting stance where they require them on unfinished basements but not on finished basements. I think they're totally unnecessary here with the proper application of uplift prevention on the exterior beam but I'm okay with having to install 2 on an unfinished basement. If they wanted them in finished basements, I'd be inclined to make a bit of a stink about it.
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Old 09-15-2014, 10:08 PM   #7
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


i'm sorry Ethan but i'm not following your logic??? the connections in question are designed for lateral stresses. An "outside beam failure" would cause catastrophic vertical failure that no rim joist or ledger is gonna stop
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Old 09-15-2014, 10:15 PM   #8
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


Parker is correct.

In the SF bay area, lateral load connections are required. In fact, in SF, ledgers must be through bolted as well, no lags.

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Old 09-15-2014, 11:54 PM   #9
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ScipioAfricanus View Post
Probably only one side if, like Dan mentioned you even need it.

Some jurisdictions re interpreting this part of the code to mean that the lateral restraining devices are not a requirement but can be used instead of the standard 1/2" lags into ledger. Sounds weird since you will use the lags to ledger anyway I know. but there it is just the same.

I would go to the BD and ask them there for their interpretation and what they will require regarding this. You might just save a hell of a lot of time on this and any upcoming project like it.

Andy.
This is the best answer
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Old 09-16-2014, 10:29 AM   #10
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


on an L shaped deck with two ledgers (perpendicular) the deck is going to have to move the structure its attached to before it can move laterally
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Old 09-16-2014, 10:57 PM   #11
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


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Originally Posted by parkers5150 View Post
i'm sorry Ethan but i'm not following your logic??? the connections in question are designed for lateral stresses. An "outside beam failure" would cause catastrophic vertical failure that no rim joist or ledger is gonna stop
There are plenty of failures where you'd be exactly right but there are some where the additional anchoring of joist-to-joist might be the difference between the deck falling, and taking the rim with it, or the deck just canting a bit and giving the HO enough time to have the situation rectified before catastrophic failure occurs. One example I can think of is that I frequently see either very shallow footings or columns that were installed with a bad lean and poor backfill. These can cause the deck to want to pull away from the ledger but it's a lateral stress, not vertical.

Anyway, I'll stop theorizing long enough to say that I think these things are just a PITA as I'm sure as hell installing my footings correctly. In the OP's case the L shape adds a ton of lateral reinforcement so they're probably overkill as well. For the $30 of hardware, I just shut my mouth and put them in.
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Old 09-16-2014, 11:05 PM   #12
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


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Originally Posted by EthanB View Post
There are plenty of failures where you'd be exactly right but there are some where the additional anchoring of joist-to-joist might be the difference between the deck falling, and taking the rim with it, or the deck just canting a bit and giving the HO enough time to have the situation rectified before catastrophic failure occurs. One example I can think of is that I frequently see either very shallow footings or columns that were installed with a bad lean and poor backfill. These can cause the deck to want to pull away from the ledger but it's a lateral stress, not vertical.

Anyway, I'll stop theorizing long enough to say that I think these things are just a PITA as I'm sure as hell installing my footings correctly. In the OP's case the L shape adds a ton of lateral reinforcement so they're probably overkill as well. For the $30 of hardware, I just shut my mouth and put them in.
I would be ecstatic if it was just 30 dollars of hardware. But I'm mostly tieing into a second story rim board, so this means I will more then likely need to go into the ceiling inside the home. Turns 30 dollars worth of hardware into hundreds. Also basements are pretty much unheard of here.
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Old 09-16-2014, 11:11 PM   #13
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


That's why I was so damn happy when they decided that they only want them on unfinished basements. If it was finished basements then it'd be at least another $500. You always have to paint the whole damn ceiling when you make a patch.

Have you looked into using a hole saw through the rim so you can get your hand in there to set the tie without having to open up the ceiling? I was wondering if this would fly if they ever start requiring them for finished spaces.
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Old 09-16-2014, 11:13 PM   #14
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


vertical
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Old 09-16-2014, 11:18 PM   #15
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


Quote:
Originally Posted by EthanB View Post
That's why I was so damn happy when they decided that they only want them on unfinished basements. If it was finished basements then it'd be at least another $500. You always have to paint the whole damn ceiling when you make a patch.

Have you looked into using a hole saw through the rim so you can get your hand in there to set the tie without having to open up the ceiling? I was wondering if this would fly if they ever start requiring them for finished spaces.
According to the code book they only require a certain amount of lateral strength. As long as my engineer can achieve this lateral strength with other methods those lateral hold downs are not required. I've been able to achieve this, this way. Believe it or not lags alone can achieve this. But it takes an engineers signature/stamp to get it accepted.
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Old 09-16-2014, 11:18 PM   #16
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


At the end of the day it all boils down to the AHJ.
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Old 09-17-2014, 02:13 AM   #17
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


I think the real PITA is the requirement for the nailing at 6" oc to the joist with the devices.

Have to tear up a floor for that in many cases.


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Old 09-17-2014, 03:59 AM   #18
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


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I think the real PITA is the requirement for the nailing at 6" oc to the joist with the devices.

Have to tear up a floor for that in many cases.


Andy.
Couldn't agree with you more Andy... In order for the system to work it has to be done according to the design criteria.
When they came out with this and they encountered this issue, they started coming up with all kinds of fixes to go around the floor removal process.
NJ banned this idea all together, because there is so many methods which are less evasive and just as good and is much easier to install.

They keep coming out with all this gadgets, but in reality, if a hack is doing a deck, no matter what is out there, the deck or any structure will still fail... at the same time you take a well built deck done by a professional contractor, that deck is not going anywhere,this decks are still around and most of them outlast some of the decks you find today.
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Old 11-13-2014, 07:04 PM   #19
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


All they have to do is require the "builder" to wrap a strap from the sill plate around the rim joist and on top of interior joist before subfloor plywood and no rim joist will ever come off and we stop all this STUPID bracket BS that's been invented by manufacturers to sell product. Been building decks the same way for 30yrs. They are all still standing.
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Old 11-14-2014, 02:14 AM   #20
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Re: Deck Tension Tie At Two Points On Ledger?


IF holddowns back to house floor joists are required for permit,
and IF the house joists run parallel to your deck joists
and IF the ceiling below is finished,

here's a solution... requiring zero drywall work.

dproc, the bracket bs is strictly for retrofit applications. Straps would do an excellent job of locking the ledger down during framing stage, but that only works for new construction projects. And there's no easy way to replace the ledger after 30 years, not without cutting the straps and installing the new ledger differently.

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