Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada) - Page 6 - Decks & Fencing - Contractor Talk

Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)

 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-14-2015, 09:24 PM   #101
Deck Parts Retailer
 
killerdecks's Avatar
 
Trade: deck builder
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Wayne Mi
Posts: 3,108
Rewards Points: 888

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertCDF View Post
Greg, you are aware that pt lumber doesn't use arsenic for treating anymore right? Everything changed in 2002 (I think it was 02, or was it 04?) It's not the same stuff, today's products nowhere near as good. Not to mention quality of lumber being on a steady decline.
Arsenic was for bugs, Copper is for preserving, they still use copper.
killerdecks is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to killerdecks For This Useful Post:
TNTRenovate (12-14-2015)

Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ContractorTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

   

Advertisement

 

Old 12-14-2015, 10:04 PM   #102
Hair Splitter
 
TNTRenovate's Avatar
 
Trade: General
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Naperville, IL
Posts: 18,322
Rewards Points: 1,268

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


Quote:
Originally Posted by killerdecks View Post
Arsenic was for bugs, Copper is for preserving, they still use copper.
Hence the green hue.
__________________
Tried & True on Facebook
Tried & True Website
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpenterSFO View Post
You ask for your money frequently, and you collect it quickly, else you stop working immediately.
TNTRenovate is offline  
Old 12-15-2015, 12:14 PM   #103
Pro
 
RobertCDF's Avatar
 
Trade: Custom deck builder
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,177
Rewards Points: 1,533

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


I looked through this forum trying to find this picture but then I remembered it was from a facebook building group. This is why new PT sucks, not to mention the bad detailing of the build with the fascia run up to the decking and allowing lots water/debris in between and accelerating rot... But either way... The new PT is not as good as the old...
RobertCDF is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-15-2015, 05:44 PM   #104
General Contractor
 
greg24k's Avatar
 
Trade: New Home Construction-Additions-Remodeling
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,663
Rewards Points: 8,480

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


If that is pressure treated wood in the picture, that is not rot, which many can confuse with white fungi which causes rot in hardwoods...

What you see there is a surface growth which is mildew or mold and it mainly grows only on the surface without damaging the wood. I'm sure we all seen that sometimes when we get a load of lumber which is stacked in the lumber yard with no spacers and room for air circulation or covered under the tarp and that is what you see in this picture, no air circulation and moisture has no means of escape and this type of growth comes in white and other light shaded colors and it can even be black.
Furthermore, some mold characteristics are tolerant of wood preservatives which contained in PT lumber and in most cases CCA or SYP lumber for the most part is never kiln dried after treatment and just being stacked or banded right after treatment, you will find that condition...
Next time you in HD check DF lumber stack (same thing not kiln dried) lift a few 2x from the stack until you get to studs with trapped moisture and you will find the same white or dark mildew on the lumber.
This type of mold will die once the lumber is dry and this type of mold will not affect lumber strength or anything else.

So when you wrap decking with azek or restoration board for a better appearance like we always do when using Composite decking like it was done in the picture, you should always use 1/4" spacer (I usually rip them from bad spindles" and nail them along rim joist perimeter this way you don't get anything like this, because the moisture can escape instead of getting trapped between the board and the deck frame...
Even if you cover the tops of the rim joist using vycor or other flashing you will get the same effect at the end of the tape unless you wrap the whole beam around in it, but who does that... keep in mind that you will never see this condition on the deck joist, because they always exposed, there is always air circulation and there is no place for the moisture to get trapped, therefore the deck joist will never rot.
House ledger, that is why we have the flashing on the house and a drip edge over the ledger diverting all the water away, so the water and the moisture don't get trapped between the ledger and the house, because at that location it will rot out the plywood because nothing there is treated other than a sill plate...

Little info about white fungi which attracts mostly hardwoods, this is also different from brown fungi which causes some serious rot in regular wood. The cause for white fungi is when wood undergoes surface alteration, it develops a white/bleached appearance, and in early stages of that happening the wood is still solid rather than being soft or crumbled. White fungi attacks cellulose, hemicellulose and lignin, but the whole process before it reaches deterioration stage in wood is very slow in comparison to brown fungi and this types of fungi's only attacks not treated hardwoods like oak, etc.

Good luck
__________________
I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!
greg24k is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to greg24k For This Useful Post:
aptpupil (12-16-2015), killerdecks (12-16-2015)
Old 12-15-2015, 06:10 PM   #105
Pro
 
RobertCDF's Avatar
 
Trade: Custom deck builder
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,177
Rewards Points: 1,533

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


I guess I'll just tell the well experienced carpenter that posted that picture that he is a blind idiot, it's rot. I'll trust the guy that poked at with a scratch awl rather than the guy who looked solely at a picture. No offense.
RobertCDF is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to RobertCDF For This Useful Post:
parkers5150 (12-16-2015)
Old 12-15-2015, 06:14 PM   #106
Pro
 
RobertCDF's Avatar
 
Trade: Custom deck builder
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,177
Rewards Points: 1,533

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


Even a simple zooming in on the picture shows the wood failing, might need glasses if you can't see it.
RobertCDF is offline  
Old 12-15-2015, 08:43 PM   #107
General Contractor
 
greg24k's Avatar
 
Trade: New Home Construction-Additions-Remodeling
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,663
Rewards Points: 8,480

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertCDF View Post
I guess I'll just tell the well experienced carpenter that posted that picture that he is a blind idiot, it's rot. I'll trust the guy that poked at with a scratch awl rather than the guy who looked solely at a picture. No offense.
None taken Rob, I'm just saying and I know people use them which is OK, the question is "Do you really need it?"

By the way I just noticed I forgot to add pictures in my earlier post of decks built from 25-40 yrs ago and all of the joists are in perfect condition, you have a few visible streaks where the decking was and the second picture the deck is from regular lumber no protection of any kind and decking was also regular lumber but painted, no rot at all...

That is why I'm not convinced by all the buzz created in decking industry that you need deck joist protection... The reason I am not convinced is because in 30 years I haven't seen a single rotted PT piece of wood and I took down a lot of structures in my days.

Ethan posted pictures of failed hangers, seen plenty of that, failed footing with regular 4x4 lumber buried in the ground, plenty of that, deteriorated brick columns, plenty of that... But never rotted PT wood.

Not much more I can say.
Attached Thumbnails
Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)-p_00004.jpg   Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)-dsc01713.jpg  
__________________
I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!
greg24k is offline  
Old 12-15-2015, 08:50 PM   #108
Talking Head
 
EthanB's Avatar
 
Trade: Poking Things With Sticks
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 5,370
Rewards Points: 402

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


I can't honestly remember a scenario where I encountered PT, of almost any age, that was rotting where I couldn't have called it at the time of construction. It's not invulnerable, but basic flashing will keep it virtually rot free.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaws View Post
Planer.....
EthanB is offline  
Old 12-15-2015, 08:54 PM   #109
Hair Splitter
 
TNTRenovate's Avatar
 
Trade: General
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Naperville, IL
Posts: 18,322
Rewards Points: 1,268

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertCDF View Post
I looked through this forum trying to find this picture but then I remembered it was from a facebook building group. This is why new PT sucks, not to mention the bad detailing of the build with the fascia run up to the decking and allowing lots water/debris in between and accelerating rot... But either way... The new PT is not as good as the old...
Its that a PT issue or an installation issue?
__________________
Tried & True on Facebook
Tried & True Website
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpenterSFO View Post
You ask for your money frequently, and you collect it quickly, else you stop working immediately.
TNTRenovate is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to TNTRenovate For This Useful Post:
greg24k (12-15-2015), John Hyatt (12-15-2015)
Old 12-15-2015, 10:28 PM   #110
General Contractor
 
greg24k's Avatar
 
Trade: New Home Construction-Additions-Remodeling
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,663
Rewards Points: 8,480

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


Quote:
Originally Posted by EthanB View Post
I can't honestly remember a scenario where I encountered PT, of almost any age, that was rotting where I couldn't have called it at the time of construction. It's not invulnerable, but basic flashing will keep it virtually rot free.
Ethan,the real question is what are you protecting or better yet are you really protecting something?

Let's take a situation in the picture Rob posted... and you flash the top of that rim joist and the flashing will drop 3-4" down the sides. Look at the picture, you have continued discoloration "let's call that rot" from top to bottom...
So if the top of the rim joist is protected and you wrap the rim joist with azek which covers the whole outside face of rim joist, the water will travel down past the 3-4" of flashing on the side and it will still collect and get trapped in between, and it will rot the bottom of that rim joist right below the flashing unless you wrap the whole thing all away around.... So if the top is protected, the rot will be at the bottom which will make deck failure faster vs a joist rotting on the top "per say"...
If we take any area of the joist in the mid span of the deck... there is no area where moisture can be trapped or accumulate except 1/4" spacing in between the decking, an area which will never rot not even in 200 years. It's simple, it's logical and it's common sense the entire decks undercarriage and structural integrity of it is covered by decking. there is less than 1% of exposure. It's impossible for that joist to rot no matter how you look at it.
Here is the picture everything is wrapped with vycor, look at the rim board, now you take a piece of azek and nail that to the face of the rim board like in Rob's picture... Where is the protection on the side of that joist? The lumber still exposed. The decking on top will cover the rim joist 100% always does without vicor, so you don't need flashing in that location. What about the sides? What good does vycor on the top when the sides have no protection. So all that vycor on that deck is meaningless, a waste of time and money and the whole protection makes no sense... but it looks good and it looks professional and it looks like its doing something...OK if that what the idea of vycor is, to make it look like its doing something OK... cover it all up.
Attached Thumbnails
Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)-capture1.jpg  
__________________
I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!
greg24k is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to greg24k For This Useful Post:
John Hyatt (12-16-2015)
Old 12-15-2015, 10:31 PM   #111
GC/carpenter
 
Calidecks's Avatar
 
Trade: Decking, Railing, Carpenter/General Contractor
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Anaheim Hills, California (OC)
Posts: 38,583
Rewards Points: 4,172

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


I just want to know what is that stuff you guys are calling moisture?
Calidecks is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Calidecks For This Useful Post:
aptpupil (12-16-2015)
Old 12-15-2015, 10:55 PM   #112
Pro
 
RobertCDF's Avatar
 
Trade: Custom deck builder
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,177
Rewards Points: 1,533

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


Quote:
Originally Posted by greg24k View Post
Ethan,the real question is what are you protecting or better yet are you really protecting something?

Let's take a situation in the picture Rob posted... and you flash the top of that rim joist and the flashing will drop 3-4" down the sides. Look at the picture, you have continued discoloration "let's call that rot" from top to bottom...
So if the top of the rim joist is protected and you wrap the rim joist with azek which covers the whole outside face of rim joist, the water will travel down past the 3-4" of flashing on the side and it will still collect and get trapped in between, and it will rot the bottom of that rim joist right below the flashing unless you wrap the whole thing all away around.... So if the top is protected, the rot will be at the bottom which will make deck failure faster vs a joist rotting on the top "per say"...
If we take any area of the joist in the mid span of the deck... there is no area where moisture can be trapped or accumulate except 1/4" spacing in between the decking, an area which will never rot not even in 200 years. It's simple, it's logical and it's common sense the entire decks undercarriage and structural integrity of it is covered by decking. there is less than 1% of exposure. It's impossible for that joist to rot no matter how you look at it.
Here is the picture everything is wrapped with vycor, look at the rim board, now you take a piece of azek and nail that to the face of the rim board like in Rob's picture... Where is the protection on the side of that joist? The lumber still exposed. The decking on top will cover the rim joist 100% always does without vicor, so you don't need flashing in that location. What about the sides? What good does vycor on the top when the sides have no protection. So all that vycor on that deck is meaningless, a waste of time and money and the whole protection makes no sense... but it looks good and it looks professional and it looks like its doing something...OK if that what the idea of vycor is, to make it look like its doing something OK... cover it all up.
If it was true that no moisture is getting in then it doesn't matter if the wood is PT... So in this case the DF isn't really rotting away it's just my imagination.
RobertCDF is offline  
Old 12-16-2015, 12:24 AM   #113
General Contractor
 
greg24k's Avatar
 
Trade: New Home Construction-Additions-Remodeling
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,663
Rewards Points: 8,480

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


I don't know where you finding this crap Rob, I see a s*^t load of nail holes on the side of it, and split lumber, not to mention it's not treated, and on top of that this wasn't a single joist, for the joist to rot like that, the decking would have to rot first... there was another piece of wood sistered to it and I think a tree fell on it to get busted like that or something happened. This is irrelevant to a pressure treated deck joists.
__________________
I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!
greg24k is offline  
Old 12-16-2015, 01:09 AM   #114
Pro
 
RobertCDF's Avatar
 
Trade: Custom deck builder
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,177
Rewards Points: 1,533

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


I'll post some more up tomorrow, that one did not have a tree fall on it, just a regular old demo of an existing deck. I took the picture myself.
RobertCDF is offline  
Old 12-16-2015, 01:17 AM   #115
GC/carpenter
 
Calidecks's Avatar
 
Trade: Decking, Railing, Carpenter/General Contractor
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Anaheim Hills, California (OC)
Posts: 38,583
Rewards Points: 4,172

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


This deck made it 37 years, it was just plain ole Doug Fir. Granted is in pretty bad shape, but give the ole gal some respect for gawds sake!
Attached Thumbnails
Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)-1450246932580.jpg   Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)-1450246958254.jpg  
Calidecks is offline  
Old 12-16-2015, 07:13 AM   #116
Pro
 
SamM's Avatar
 
Trade: Carpenter/Handyman
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 1,542
Rewards Points: 1,484

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


I've torn apart many old decks. Around here, they usually are rotting a little on the top, enough that you don't have a really nice surface for re-skinnng.
I pulled apart a pretty old deck built of plain lumber, with tar paper on top of the joists. It wasn't perfect but the tops were a lot better than I expected to see them.
__________________
Your Dreams won't work unless you do.
SamM is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to SamM For This Useful Post:
hdavis (12-17-2015)
Old 12-16-2015, 12:06 PM   #117
Registered User
 
FVS Dan's Avatar
 
Trade: Outdoor Wood Restoration and Protection
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 10
Rewards Points: 28

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


Quote:
Originally Posted by EthanB View Post
My $.02, I wouldn't bother. I've yet to see a demo where this would have made any difference on the longevity of the deck when applied to single joists.
I agree. There are very few circumstances where I have this method of covering up the tops of joists prove to be cost effective for the client UNLESS the entire structure is protected as well.

I can only speak for Ontario, but if one were to peak under any deck that's over 10 years in age, one would clearly see how ambient moisture affects the entire structure, especially on raised decks, ESPECIALLY on decks beside pools and forests!

Don't get me wrong, any idea like that reassures the clients that they hired a group of people that really care. But strictly from a application point of view, unless they regularly maintain (the ENTIRE structure!) the decks, then it's honestly hard to see the benefit in doing this.
FVS Dan is offline  
Old 12-16-2015, 12:27 PM   #118
Hair Splitter
 
TNTRenovate's Avatar
 
Trade: General
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Naperville, IL
Posts: 18,322
Rewards Points: 1,268

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


I've pulled completely rotted decking from joists that were perfect.
__________________
Tried & True on Facebook
Tried & True Website
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpenterSFO View Post
You ask for your money frequently, and you collect it quickly, else you stop working immediately.
TNTRenovate is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to TNTRenovate For This Useful Post:
hdavis (12-17-2015)
Old 12-16-2015, 01:41 PM   #119
Talking Head
 
EthanB's Avatar
 
Trade: Poking Things With Sticks
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 5,370
Rewards Points: 402

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


Sorry, Greg. I'm on a phone so I'll just say go back my earlier posts about what I do and don't flash.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaws View Post
Planer.....
EthanB is offline  
Old 12-16-2015, 02:51 PM   #120
Deck Parts Retailer
 
killerdecks's Avatar
 
Trade: deck builder
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Wayne Mi
Posts: 3,108
Rewards Points: 888

Re: Deck Joist Waterproofing (Canada)


Quote:
Originally Posted by greg24k View Post
If that is pressure treated wood in the picture, that is not rot, which many can confuse with white fungi which causes rot in hardwoods...

What you see there is a surface growth which is mildew or mold and it mainly grows only on the surface without damaging the wood. I'm sure we all seen that sometimes when we get a load of lumber which is stacked in the lumber yard with no spacers and room for air circulation or covered under the tarp and that is what you see in this picture, no air circulation and moisture has no means of escape and this type of growth comes in white and other light shaded colors and it can even be black.
Furthermore, some mold characteristics are tolerant of wood preservatives which contained in PT lumber and in most cases CCA or SYP lumber for the most part is never kiln dried after treatment and just being stacked or banded right after treatment, you will find that condition...
Next time you in HD check DF lumber stack (same thing not kiln dried) lift a few 2x from the stack until you get to studs with trapped moisture and you will find the same white or dark mildew on the lumber.
This type of mold will die once the lumber is dry and this type of mold will not affect lumber strength or anything else.

So when you wrap decking with azek or restoration board for a better appearance like we always do when using Composite decking like it was done in the picture, you should always use 1/4" spacer (I usually rip them from bad spindles" and nail them along rim joist perimeter this way you don't get anything like this, because the moisture can escape instead of getting trapped between the board and the deck frame...
Even if you cover the tops of the rim joist using vycor or other flashing you will get the same effect at the end of the tape unless you wrap the whole beam around in it, but who does that... keep in mind that you will never see this condition on the deck joist, because they always exposed, there is always air circulation and there is no place for the moisture to get trapped, therefore the deck joist will never rot.
House ledger, that is why we have the flashing on the house and a drip edge over the ledger diverting all the water away, so the water and the moisture don't get trapped between the ledger and the house, because at that location it will rot out the plywood because nothing there is treated other than a sill plate...

Little info about white fungi which attracts mostly hardwoods, this is also different from brown fungi which causes some serious rot in regular wood. The cause for white fungi is when wood undergoes surface alteration, it develops a white/bleached appearance, and in early stages of that happening the wood is still solid rather than being soft or crumbled. White fungi attacks cellulose, hemicellulose and lignin, but the whole process before it reaches deterioration stage in wood is very slow in comparison to brown fungi and this types of fungi's only attacks not treated hardwoods like oak, etc.

Good luck
Great info. You should get a Pulitzer prize for this.

Advertisement

killerdecks is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to killerdecks For This Useful Post:
greg24k (12-16-2015)


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Using Geomembrane for Under Deck Waterproofing...questions TG Deck Decks & Fencing 13 07-01-2015 07:41 PM
Under deck waterproofing for cantilevered(beam under) decks EthanB Decks & Fencing 24 04-17-2015 10:30 PM
Summer deck projects C2projects Decks & Fencing 149 01-16-2013 12:24 AM

Join Now... It's Fast and FREE!

I am a professional contractor
I am a DIY Homeowner
Drywall Talk is for
PROFESSIONAL CONTRACTORS ONLY!

At DrywallTalk.com we cater exlusivly to professional contractors who make their living as a contractor. Knowing that many homeowners and DIYers are looking for a community to call home, we've created www.DIYChatroom.com DIY Chatroom is full of helpful advices and perfect for DIY homeowners.

Redirecing in 10 seconds
No Thanks
terms of service

Already Have an Account?