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Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger

 
 
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Old 05-07-2019, 08:40 AM  
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Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


I'm having a hard time figuring out if the was done correctly. It's the first time I've seen it done this way. Anyone have any insight?


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Old 05-07-2019, 09:00 AM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


Probably okay looks like they hung from a concrete beam.

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Old 05-07-2019, 10:49 AM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


Looks like a ton of extra work and extra concrete piles to hold all of the beams.
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Old 05-07-2019, 12:04 PM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


I have seen it done this way, but this deck is incorrectly framed and will fail eventually.

You have a double beam that is not carrying the load. You have outer 2x10 (I assume) members nailed to the double on each side and you have a 2x4 nailed to this outer members, therefore the entire deck load is being supported by a 2x4 which is held by nails and a 2x10 which is nailed to the double beam and picks up a fraction of the deck load.

I'm not sure what span you have there but all 4-2x members should be bolted through to create one beam carrying the deck load over that span and remove that 2x4 and add joist hangers to each joist.

That said seeing this I'm not sure what the rest of the subframe looks like, whoever did this deck don't know s^*t about building decks and how the loads, i.e sheal loading, wind loading, and LL and DL interacts with the rest of the structure.

Good luck
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Old 05-07-2019, 08:14 PM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


Quote:
Originally Posted by greg24k View Post
I have seen it done this way, but this deck is incorrectly framed and will fail eventually.

You have a double beam that is not carrying the load. You have outer 2x10 (I assume) members nailed to the double on each side and you have a 2x4 nailed to this outer members, therefore the entire deck load is being supported by a 2x4 which is held by nails and a 2x10 which is nailed to the double beam and picks up a fraction of the deck load.

I'm not sure what span you have there but all 4-2x members should be bolted through to create one beam carrying the deck load over that span and remove that 2x4 and add joist hangers to each joist.

That said seeing this I'm not sure what the rest of the subframe looks like, whoever did this deck don't know s^*t about building decks and how the loads, i.e sheal loading, wind loading, and LL and DL interacts with the rest of the structure.

Good luck


I agree on the lack of hangers but I donít think itís necessary to bolt all of the multi ply beams together.

As long as they are nailed correctly with the correct nails.
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Old 05-07-2019, 08:51 PM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


Properly nailed, I'd put that 2x4 up against joist hangers any day. Simpson isn't the only way.
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Old 05-07-2019, 09:21 PM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


Fwiw, no more 2x2 (at least) ledgers from what I read in the upcoming IRC.
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Old 05-07-2019, 09:38 PM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


Too bad, ledgers and nails have worked great. The oldest PT deck structure I know was done that way more than 50 years ago.
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Old 05-07-2019, 09:47 PM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stunt Carpenter View Post
I agree on the lack of hangers but I donít think itís necessary to bolt all of the multi ply beams together.

As long as they are nailed correctly with the correct nails.


They must be bolted or at least attached with SDS 1/4x3 using installation guide chart to support the deck load.

No matter how you nail that beam, the entire load will transfer onto the nails, not the beam. If the floor joists rested on top of the beam it would be perfectly fine to nail them together because you are dealing with an evenly distributed loading, but since the joist attached to the sides of the beam they must be screwed or bolted because now you have a shear loading. Nails will fail down the road and you will end up with deck failure.
Same as the ledger, it must be bolted to the house because joists attached to the face of it, even if you use ledger locks, on the 16' span you must install ledger locks 9" O.C. there is no way a nailed ledger would support the load.
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Old 05-07-2019, 09:50 PM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


There are tens of thousands of code approved decks that were built that way before hangers came around
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Old 05-07-2019, 09:56 PM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


A ton of traditional framing was done this way. Deck boards were run perpendicular to the building with a 1 in 8 or 10 slope, so the framing was turned compared to conventional. The apparent beam is really just a single 2X12 or whatever is required. If doubling is required, you just use the nailing schedule to make it a double 2X12 beam. Joists are set on the ledger and toe nailed or end nailed in place.

Joists on a ledger on a single 2X12. No bolts required. It is desirable to keep adjacent sections moving together just yo keep the deck board straddling the 2 sections from working loose, so the side by side 2X12 s would normally be nailed together. It just isn't a structural requirement.
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Old 05-07-2019, 10:06 PM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


There is nothing wrong with the ribbon band joist, in the IRC 2015 code this is still an approved method.
The problem is with the 2x that the 2x4 is attached to it. That should be bolted to the double.
I would use hangers instead of ribbon band joist.
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Old 05-07-2019, 10:23 PM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


Quote:
Originally Posted by greg24k View Post
There is nothing wrong with the ribbon band joist, in the IRC 2015 code this is still an approved method.
The problem is with the 2x that the 2x4 is attached to it. That should be bolted to the double.
I would use hangers instead of ribbon band joist.
The way this was designed, the 2X4s aren't part of a structural beam. If the single 2X12 holding up one end of the decking boards is inadequate, throughbolting to the adjacent one doesn't make it any better, it's also carrying the load from one end of decking boards. If it's undersized, it's undersized.
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Old 05-07-2019, 10:36 PM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


That'd never pass here. It's about lateral movement.


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Old 05-07-2019, 10:38 PM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


Then there's the rot between the 2x and the beam. It's not best practices imo.


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Old 05-08-2019, 10:02 AM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


Since those joists are offset, what's the nailing/screwing pattern going to look like on top?
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Old 05-08-2019, 12:46 PM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


It had to pass inspection at the time of construction, not now. If it passed at the time is all that matters.
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Old 05-08-2019, 06:08 PM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


Quote:
Originally Posted by greg24k View Post
They must be bolted or at least attached with SDS 1/4x3 using installation guide chart to support the deck load.

No matter how you nail that beam, the entire load will transfer onto the nails, not the beam. If the floor joists rested on top of the beam it would be perfectly fine to nail them together because you are dealing with an evenly distributed loading, but since the joist attached to the sides of the beam they must be screwed or bolted because now you have a shear loading. Nails will fail down the road and you will end up with deck failure.
Same as the ledger, it must be bolted to the house because joists attached to the face of it, even if you use ledger locks, on the 16' span you must install ledger locks 9" O.C. there is no way a nailed ledger would support the load.
If its glued and nailed it's fine, otherwise its thru bolts.

Glued and nailed has to be clamped so it is tight. I actually believe a glued and nailed dbl beam works better than thru bolts because thru bolts your still relying on a mechanical fastener in a wood product. When its glued it's basically a solid member.
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Old 05-08-2019, 06:11 PM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


Quote:
Originally Posted by Calidecks View Post
Then there's the rot between the 2x and the beam. It's not best practices imo.


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Old 05-08-2019, 06:23 PM  
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Re: Attaching A Deck Without A Conventional Ledger


Best practices is pre-engineered hangers. Imo


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