4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles - Decks & Fencing - Contractor Talk

4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles

 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-15-2009, 01:55 AM   #1
Registered User
 
Strongarm's Avatar
 
Trade: CARPENTER
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Kamloops,BC,Canada
Posts: 4
Rewards Points: 10

4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


I've learned to always use saddles in concrete to support my 4x4's for my fence posts......golden rule..never have wood in concrete. To be honest my fences have always sucked....never solid and straight enough.
Last night I watched Mike Holmes pound off 55 yards of fencing putting them in holes and filling with concrete.
What is the life expectancy of a 4x4 treated in concrete before the water rots it?
Does anyone have any tricks to keep the whole concrete from moving around in the ground...??? do you get a packer or what?

Pros and Cons of saddles in concrete vs posts directly in concrete..???

Thanks alot ....

Chris McAvoy
Strongarm Framing
Strongarm is offline  

Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ContractorTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

   

Advertisement

 

Old 08-15-2009, 02:04 AM   #2
Pro
 
KennMacMoragh's Avatar
 
Trade: Repair/Remodel
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 3,902
Rewards Points: 3,262

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


Saddles for fence posts are dumb, I saw it once, makes a very weak fence. Put some gravel in the bottom of the fence post hole before you pour concrete in it if you're worried about it lasting a long time.

Advertisement

KennMacMoragh is offline  
Old 08-15-2009, 08:16 AM   #3
Pro
 
deckman22's Avatar
 
Trade: Retired Deck Builder
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Austin, Tx.
Posts: 4,181
Rewards Points: 2,382

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


I know the old cca treated post would last longer than the rest of the fence, this new stuff, I don't know. Still, I would not use saddles.

Something that some may not know is that only the sapwood of yellow pine accepts treatment. The heartwood will not take the treatment, but it does not need it anyway as it will not rot before the treated sapwood does. Look at your 4x4 post, if you have a growth ring in the center with plenty of heartwood around the center that post is not going to rot.
__________________
Deckman
deckman22 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-15-2009, 08:23 AM   #4
Pro
 
JonM's Avatar
 
Trade: Building and Remodeling
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: CONNECTICUT
Posts: 1,846
Rewards Points: 1,242

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


Currently, there are four levels of pressure treatment, regardless of the chemical used as a preservative. These are based on the intended use of the product and the measurement is in pounds of preservative per cubic foot of wood product. The ratings and suggested uses are:
Attached Thumbnails
4x4 posts in concrete vs. saddles-capture-selection-20090815-092209-1.jpg  
JonM is offline  
Old 08-15-2009, 08:36 AM   #5
always building
 
parkers5150's Avatar
 
Trade: general constructiion
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North County San Diego Fallbrook CA
Posts: 1,814
Rewards Points: 2,224

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


imho the main reason fence posts fail is not so much that they are in concrete, but rather that the installer does not take the time to "finish" the conc. correctly. 99% of the fence guys out there drop the post and the crete in the hole, plumb and line it, then they take there big hoof and slide a little dirt up and around their newly completed project. the dirt is the major culprit in fence post rot. dirt harbors the insects, moisture, and organic matter for fungus. take the extra time, add a little extra conc. and "finish" it so that water and debris move away from the post. not one of my favorite things to do these days, but there are fences i built 15+ years ago that are still solid as a rock. hope that helps
parkers5150 is offline  
Old 08-15-2009, 08:54 AM   #6
Pro
 
Santa's Helpers's Avatar
 
Trade: Repair and remodeling
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tallahassee FL
Posts: 125
Rewards Points: 97

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


slope the concrete down away from the post to shed water and you will not have any problems. I have installed and removed many posts. The ones that fail do so above the concrete. Water pools above the concrete at the base of the post and that is were the rot occurs. Make a small pyramid sloping away from the post to shed water and the problem is solved.
Jeff
Santa's Helpers is offline  
Old 08-15-2009, 09:31 AM   #7
Pro
 
jtpro's Avatar
 
Trade: Construction Assistant Superintendant/Remodeler
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Jacksonville, Fl
Posts: 1,154
Rewards Points: 500

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


Quote:
Originally Posted by Santa's Helpers View Post
slope the concrete down away from the post to shed water and you will not have any problems. I have installed and removed many posts. The ones that fail do so above the concrete. Water pools above the concrete at the base of the post and that is were the rot occurs. Make a small pyramid sloping away from the post to shed water and the problem is solved.
Jeff
I plan on re placing my whole fence line and along SH's suggestion I will be sealing mine too.

Call it overkill but, it'll make me sleep better.
jtpro is offline  
Old 08-15-2009, 10:06 AM   #8
Pro
 
RobertCDF's Avatar
 
Trade: Custom deck builder
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,177
Rewards Points: 1,533

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


Want to make a bullet proof fence? Use a 6x6 ground contact treated posts and wrap the entire bottom in Ice & Water shield. Then bring your concrete up and slope it away. If the Ice & Water shield is above the concrete your post should last.... well I dont know 100% but I will bet it will last 50+ years.

Another untested idea is you use truck bed liner I think that stuff would waterproof really well.
RobertCDF is offline  
Old 08-15-2009, 10:24 AM   #9
Pro
 
Tom R's Avatar
 
Trade: Carpenter
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 6,858
Rewards Points: 2,036

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


I installed treated 4 X 4 posts for the fence entering my back yard about 17 years ago and they're still just fine.

Did I mention that one of them hinges a custom-made 13' (chain-link) metal gate that operates only on it's two gate hinges attached to one of the said 4 X 4's at the one end, and a small wheel to ride on (the concrete slab) at the other?? It gets opened and shut at least an average of 2 to 4 times a day, every day (my trucks are locked in the yard at night).

Did I also mention I poured them in the dead of winter, a Jersey January??

Last edited by Tom R; 08-15-2009 at 10:26 AM.
Tom R is offline  
Old 08-15-2009, 12:05 PM   #10
Pro
 
jtpro's Avatar
 
Trade: Construction Assistant Superintendant/Remodeler
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Jacksonville, Fl
Posts: 1,154
Rewards Points: 500

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom R View Post
I installed treated 4 X 4 posts for the fence entering my back yard about 17 years ago and they're still just fine.

Did I mention that one of them hinges a custom-made 13' (chain-link) metal gate that operates only on it's two gate hinges attached to one of the said 4 X 4's at the one end, and a small wheel to ride on (the concrete slab) at the other?? It gets opened and shut at least an average of 2 to 4 times a day, every day (my trucks are locked in the yard at night).

Did I also mention I poured them in the dead of winter, a Jersey January??
You mean off the shelf Tom or you added Xtra treatment?
jtpro is offline  
Old 08-15-2009, 06:55 PM   #11
Pro
 
Tom R's Avatar
 
Trade: Carpenter
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 6,858
Rewards Points: 2,036

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


Quote:
Originally Posted by jtpro View Post
You mean off the shelf Tom or you added Xtra treatment?

At that time, off the shelf, - - but now I also coat the below-grade sections with foundation coating or similar, just for the added protection.

(and I was thinking about it, - - yeah, it will be 17 years this January, - - I installed them in Jan,'93, along with a couple hundred foot of 6' privacy fencing, of which all the posts are also still holding up just fine).

Last edited by Tom R; 08-15-2009 at 06:58 PM.
Tom R is offline  
Old 08-15-2009, 07:28 PM   #12
Pro
 
jtpro's Avatar
 
Trade: Construction Assistant Superintendant/Remodeler
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Jacksonville, Fl
Posts: 1,154
Rewards Points: 500

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom R View Post
At that time, off the shelf, - - but now I also coat the below-grade sections with foundation coating or similar, just for the added protection.

(and I was thinking about it, - - yeah, it will be 17 years this January, - - I installed them in Jan,'93, along with a couple hundred foot of 6' privacy fencing, of which all the posts are also still holding up just fine).
Cool!

Years ago helping my Dad do stuff around the acreage I wanna say linseed oil ? (memory's foggy from the 80's) Anyway treated posts below grade for added protection always stuck in my head as the "right way".

Plan on doing the same!
jtpro is offline  
Old 08-15-2009, 08:09 PM   #13
Deck Designer/Builder
 
DecksEtc's Avatar
 
Trade: Construction Project Manager
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Whitby, Ontario
Posts: 2,430
Rewards Points: 1,000

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


Quote:
Originally Posted by parkers5150 View Post
imho the main reason fence posts fail is not so much that they are in concrete, but rather that the installer does not take the time to "finish" the conc. correctly. 99% of the fence guys out there drop the post and the crete in the hole, plumb and line it, then they take there big hoof and slide a little dirt up and around their newly completed project. the dirt is the major culprit in fence post rot. dirt harbors the insects, moisture, and organic matter for fungus. take the extra time, add a little extra conc. and "finish" it so that water and debris move away from the post. not one of my favorite things to do these days, but there are fences i built 15+ years ago that are still solid as a rock. hope that helps
If I did that in the area I am in, the posts would all be heaved from frost in less than 2 years.

I've removed many, many crooked fence posts/fences because the previous installer had the concrete up to ground level.
__________________
I am the liquor - Jim Lahey, Trailer Park Supervisor
DecksEtc is offline  
Old 08-15-2009, 08:37 PM   #14
John Hyatt
 
John Hyatt's Avatar
 
Trade: out door areas, decks,spa room additions,fire pits
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 3,658
Rewards Points: 3,910

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


This whole wood in the ground thing is intersting to me mostley because how bad the pt lumber is now a days. I have been using motor oil and now have a gal of Cuprinol #10 we used on the current Garapa deck>>Thanks Neo!!<< foundation. That stuff has a good rep and track record and has a midley intreging sent. But really I am not puting any wood in the ground with out something on it the lumber is just too poor.

On thing I have done with high $ trellis covers, go on and use the best pt posts I can find then 6'' below and above grade fasten copper flat stock to the post with copper nails. The more water,the more it leaches,the more protection. Thats an ol Joe Wood's trick I learned from the Master himself. J.

Side note>> the green Mafia is after Cuprinol as well its just a matter of time before they kick it to the curb along with anything else that actually works<<
John Hyatt is offline  
Old 08-15-2009, 09:27 PM   #15
Pro
 
jtpro's Avatar
 
Trade: Construction Assistant Superintendant/Remodeler
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Jacksonville, Fl
Posts: 1,154
Rewards Points: 500

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


[quote=John Hyatt;746926]This whole wood in the ground thing is intersting to me mostley because how bad the pt lumber is now a days. I have been using motor oil and now have a gal of Cuprinol #10 we used on

quote]

Well spank my ass and call me Sally!

That's a new one! Used ? Do you soak or paint it on?

NEVER say one can't learn something new everyday!

Thanks!
jtpro is offline  
Old 08-15-2009, 09:43 PM   #16
Cabinetmaker
 
skymaster's Avatar
 
Trade: Cabinetmaker
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Zebulon, NC
Posts: 672
Rewards Points: 500

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


Up here that would bring out the hazmat squad :}
For many many years a great friend and contractor always used motor oil on the wood in concrete forms :}:}:}
skymaster is offline  
Old 08-15-2009, 10:10 PM   #17
topsail's trimcat
 
woodworkbykirk's Avatar
 
Trade: finish Carpenter/ renovations
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: ns, canada
Posts: 5,028
Rewards Points: 384

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


ive done the ice and water wrap method, no issues

im in a port city and the the city just redid a very large section of walkway piers along the waterfront, they used pressure treated 12 x 12's and 4x6's, but is was marine grade pt because its submerged, ill see if i can find out if that wood is easily attainable
__________________
putting down subfloor with glue and screws, well i saw dr. smith and the robot too , i had a martian burger and a sonic shake
woodworkbykirk is offline  
Old 08-16-2009, 07:27 AM   #18
John Hyatt
 
John Hyatt's Avatar
 
Trade: out door areas, decks,spa room additions,fire pits
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 3,658
Rewards Points: 3,910

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


I just paint it on the top of the creet,all 6 sides of the wood plate and up the sides of the posts. New Used 30 weight 60 weight whatever is around. With pictures showing micro un pro starting to rot in 9 mo or so in the ground I have to do something.

Motor oil is a very old trick, when I was up in Eugune Or the forest service used trany fulid on all their wood projects. J.
John Hyatt is offline  
Old 08-16-2009, 08:05 AM   #19
Pro
 
jtpro's Avatar
 
Trade: Construction Assistant Superintendant/Remodeler
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Jacksonville, Fl
Posts: 1,154
Rewards Points: 500

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


Quote:
Originally Posted by skymaster View Post
Up here that would bring out the hazmat squad :}
For many many years a great friend and contractor always used motor oil on the wood in concrete forms :}:}:}
That was probably before form release oils were readily sold. and it's cheaper than gallons of WD-40!

As to Mr.Hyatt I was curious about tranny and other oils/fluids I guess that answers it.
jtpro is offline  
Old 08-16-2009, 08:12 AM   #20
Money Changer
 
bert0168's Avatar
 
Trade: Residential Remodeling
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bucks County, PA
Posts: 804
Rewards Points: 500

Re: 4x4 Posts In Concrete Vs. Saddles


Boat builders/restorers use trans fluid to make mahogany look like teak.

I've used it on my own boat, seems to work well.

Advertisement

bert0168 is offline  


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Embedding W10 beam in concrete footing Greg Di Construction 31 02-20-2009 08:45 AM
Tampa, FL. Concrete Forklift Ramp Needed phattractor Help Wanted or Looking For Work 0 02-10-2009 02:26 PM
Kansas City Decorative Concrete - New Member ADC-Dustin New Member Introductions 5 11-15-2008 10:24 PM
Pyramidal Concrete Steps Cache Concrete & Paving 19 10-20-2008 05:33 PM
Need to frame a wall over concrete wall. joseph Carpentry 3 10-07-2008 07:19 PM

Join Now... It's Fast and FREE!

I am a professional contractor
I am a DIY Homeowner
Drywall Talk is for
PROFESSIONAL CONTRACTORS ONLY!

At DrywallTalk.com we cater exlusivly to professional contractors who make their living as a contractor. Knowing that many homeowners and DIYers are looking for a community to call home, we've created www.DIYChatroom.com DIY Chatroom is full of helpful advices and perfect for DIY homeowners.

Redirecing in 10 seconds
No Thanks
terms of service

Already Have an Account?