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GFCI On A Sump Pump

 
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Old 06-22-2015, 09:24 AM   #21
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


Since the NEC may not budge, does anyone make motors that are specifically designed to work reliably with GFCIs?

For starters, they'd have a very low winding-to-case capacitance and maybe a low inrush current (achieved electronically).

Of course, doing so would admit that there is a problem.

BTW, with vehicle problems that the dealership has not admitted to, there is always 'the aftermarket'. There doesn't seem to be a parallel in this situation.

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Old 06-22-2015, 10:38 AM   #22
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


Quote:
Originally Posted by bartstop View Post
Install a new GFCI. If it's tripping too, the pump has a fault and needs to be replaced.

I agree that a sump pump should not be required to be on a GFCI but the code is the code and we have to comply with it for liability reasons.
Normally I would agree with you with the NEC code stepping to far but as you just mentioned if the GFCI is tripping then there is a fault with the unit. Simply checking resistance from the ground terminal to the common of the pump plug would verify this. Now even if it trips the GFCI but works normal on a non protected circuit is it still safe to use? Do they put it on a non protected circuit and wait for the fault to become bad enough to trip the breaker or have someone get injured?

IMO anything directly dealing with water where a person may have in contact should be GFCI protected. Where I think the NEC stepped a little far is the requirement of a GFCI circuit for say a fridge or freezer in a basement/garage area. I myself put those on dedicated circuits so I don't chance a loss of thousands of dollars in food over a faulty device.
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Old 06-22-2015, 01:02 PM   #23
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


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Originally Posted by woodchuck2 View Post
Simply checking resistance from the ground terminal to the common of the pump plug would verify this.
In some cases.
The ohmmeter test voltage is much smaller than 120v and the leakage may be voltage dependent. In this case the formula I = E/R is too simple to model this problem because R depends on E.
Also, the meter applies DC but the GFCI responds to resistance and capacitive reactance.
Maybe the next generation of GFCIs will measure phase angle and favor tripping on resistance rather than reactance.
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Old 06-22-2015, 04:17 PM   #24
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


Can someone show me where a sump pump is required to have a dedicated or individual branch circuit? I under stand if the pump draws more than 10 amps on a 20 amp circuit that there is an issue based on 210.23(A)(2) if the pump is fastened in place. I have not seen any that were fastened.

The point is I have never seen an article that requires a sump pump to have a dedicated circuit. I search the NEC pdf and still have not come across that requirement
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Old 06-22-2015, 04:53 PM   #25
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


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if the pump is fastened in place. I have not seen any that were fastened.
Does PVC pipe count as 'fastened'?
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Old 06-22-2015, 05:09 PM   #26
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


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Does PVC pipe count as 'fastened'?
Perhaps but that still does not answer my question
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Old 06-22-2015, 05:29 PM   #27
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


From 2002
http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/nec-re...errupters-gfci

However, the Code does note a few exceptions to these rules: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are not readily accessible or are located on a dedicated branch circuit and identified for a specific cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump. (means no duplex outlet)?

It may have changed since then.

BTW, I am about the last person in the world to help an electrician, if I have this time.
I don't know the NEC and they mostly no likey me!
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Old 06-22-2015, 06:13 PM   #28
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


Quote:
Originally Posted by GettingBy View Post
From 2002
http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/nec-re...errupters-gfci

However, the Code does note a few exceptions to these rules: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are not readily accessible or are located on a dedicated branch circuit and identified for a specific cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump. (means no duplex outlet)?

It may have changed since then.

BTW, I am about the last person in the world to help an electrician, if I have this time.
I don't know the NEC and they mostly no likey me!
I am not talking about gfci I am talking about an individual circuit which was mentioned earlier in the thread. In most cases a gfci would be required because of the location of the sump pump.
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Old 06-22-2015, 09:02 PM   #29
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


I guess I have not helped an electrician, after all.

BTW, my username should be
Je l'ai eu jusqu' ici

Last edited by GettingBy; 06-22-2015 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 06-22-2015, 09:07 PM   #30
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


If I remember correctly a dedicated outlet ( single ) not a dedicated circuit, is what my electrician said.

A faulty gfi on a sump pump can ruin much more than a freezer full of food, I have a customer who knows this first hand. Almost 2 ft of water in the basement, now they have single non gfi outlet and 2 water alarms.
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Old 06-22-2015, 09:17 PM   #31
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


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Originally Posted by rrk View Post
If I remember correctly a dedicated outlet ( single ) not a dedicated circuit, is what my electrician said.

A faulty gfi on a sump pump can ruin much more than a freezer full of food, I have a customer who knows this first hand. Almost 2 ft of water in the basement, now they have single non gfi outlet and 2 water alarms.
I guess the same logic could apply to a trigger-happy AFCI. And I should have done this for my new, basement WH.

"Water heaters having an ignition source shall be elevated so that the source of ignition is not less than 18” above the garage floor."

Last edited by GettingBy; 06-22-2015 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 06-22-2015, 11:03 PM   #32
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


Quote:
Originally Posted by rrk View Post
If I remember correctly a dedicated outlet ( single ) not a dedicated circuit, is what my electrician said.
Still makes no sense. I can install a gfci receptacle at the pump and that is not a single receptacle. Anyway, just wanted to clarify
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Old 06-23-2015, 06:25 AM   #33
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


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Still makes no sense. I can install a gfci receptacle at the pump and that is not a single receptacle. Anyway, just wanted to clarify
To eliminate the need for a GFI a single receptacle is used not a duplex. We have done it on several jobs and he has done it many times. Never an issue at inspection
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Old 06-23-2015, 12:33 PM   #34
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


Quote:
Originally Posted by rrk View Post
To eliminate the need for a GFI a single receptacle is used not a duplex. We have done it on several jobs and he has done it many times. Never an issue at inspection
That may be because you have an amendment to the NEC rule. A single receptacle does not replace the need for a gfci if the equipment is installed in an area that requires Gfci protection.

In NC we have a similar amendment but it is only for sewer lift pumps not sump pumps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amendment 210.8(A)(3)
Exception No. 2 to (3): A single outlet receptacle supplied by dedicated branch circuit which is located and identified for specific use by a sewage lift pump.
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Old 06-23-2015, 12:42 PM   #35
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


After 34 posts:
who's right?
who's wrong?
who's left?

This begins to look like
http://www.ericberne.com/games-peopl...t-you-yes-but/
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Old 06-23-2015, 12:48 PM   #36
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


The NEC states one thing but local codes can amend it. So if NJ allows a single receptacle on a dedicated circuit with no gfci for a sump pump then it is the correct method. The NEC does not allow it-- I cn't answer for every states local amendments.
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Old 06-23-2015, 01:05 PM   #37
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


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The NEC states one thing but local codes can amend it. So if NJ allows a single receptacle on a dedicated circuit with no gfci for a sump pump then it is the correct method. The NEC does not allow it-- I cn't answer for every states local amendments.
Fair enough.
If one rule contradicts the other I'd ask why, but it seems in some cases both can be 'right' at the same time, 'right' meaning it minimizes the danger to life in that local area.
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:16 PM   #38
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


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Originally Posted by C'est Moi View Post
The NEC states one thing but local codes can amend it. So if NJ allows a single receptacle on a dedicated circuit with no gfci for a sump pump then it is the correct method. The NEC does not allow it-- I cn't answer for every states local amendments.
I would be surprised if they did but it does not matter to me as long as it passes inspection that is all that matters. And not having house flood.

I will ask the next time I see him.

Just for clarity, a single use receptacle not necessarily on a dedicated circuit. But definitely not gfi protected. Also all of the sumps here are sealed for radon purposes maybe that plays a part also.
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Old 06-25-2015, 10:02 AM   #39
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


Quote:
Originally Posted by rrk View Post
I would be surprised if they did but it does not matter to me as long as it passes inspection that is all that matters. And not having house flood.

I will ask the next time I see him.

Just for clarity, a single use receptacle not necessarily on a dedicated circuit. But definitely not gfi protected. Also all of the sumps here are sealed for radon purposes maybe that plays a part also.
Years ago the NEC would allow a single receptacle in a garage for a refrigerator that did not require a gfci. That is probably where the concept of the single receptacle for a sump pump came from. The NEC no longer allows that install- today all receptacles in the garage need gfci protection unless, of course, there is a local amendment

I would not be satisfied with just passing. IMO, if the code says one thing and the inspectors don't call it then you are liable and it is not worth it.
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Old 06-25-2015, 10:16 AM   #40
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Re: GFCI On A Sump Pump


I did some reading online and I believe the NJ amendment has reverted 210.8(A)(5) (unfinished basements) to the 2005 NEC which allows a single receptacle to be installed for a dedicated piece of equipment without gfci protection

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