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Forcing A Breaker To Trip

 
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:32 AM   #61
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


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At least you didn't get turned into a newt.

...did you?
No. But I really wanted to be a lumberjack
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:00 AM   #62
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


Quote:
Originally Posted by 480sparky View Post
OK: Once again, for everyone's benefit:


THE PANEL WILL NOT BE ENERGIZED.

THERE IS NO POWER SUPPLIED TO THE PANEL.

THERE WILL BE NO WAY TO TRIP THE BREAKER BY OVERLOADING IT.

Drawing excessive power will be impossible.

One cannot cause an overload on an unenergized panel.

In order to create an current flow, voltage must be present.


This..... is a dead.... panel.




Why do I feel like John Cleese in the Pet Shop skit?



.




I appreciate all the ideas, for sure...but anything regarding tripping by overload or short circuit is not going to happen in front of a bunch of 12-14 year old boys who will go home and, beyond my control, teach their parents what they learned. They may (likely WILL) someday learn that if you touch this and this together...or if you run this and this and this at the same time, the breaker will trip/sparks will fly. But they will not be learning that from me.

Remove and tap will work for the purposes of this demo.



WC:
Just for my own knowledge, I am curious how you would go about "modifying a breaker to trip at a much lower current". No sarcasm intended, I really am curious if this is possible and how you would do it (not that I necessarily want to...and definitely won't be for the purposes of the thread topic).


But like I said, sincerely to everyone here, I do appreciate all the ideas that were given...and if you have others, I'm always willing to listen...but if they involve having power to the panel, it aint happenin'
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:14 PM   #63
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


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Originally Posted by jproffer View Post
..........
WC:
Just for my own knowledge, I am curious how you would go about "modifying a breaker to trip at a much lower current". No sarcasm intended, I really am curious if this is possible and how you would do it (not that I necessarily want to...and definitely won't be for the purposes of the thread topic).........
I'm curious as well. If a 5a breaker existed, I doubt you could use a 20a load to trip it, at least in a reasonable time. The trip curve for an average inverse-time breaker shows it would take 20-30 seconds for it to respond.
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Old 07-18-2013, 04:34 PM   #64
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


I was aware he had planned to show this as a dead panel but thought maybe a live panel may also be an option. My thought were using a tester he could show how single phase powers a panel, how to test it, how one gets 110v and 220v out of a panel. How to modify a breaker? Know clue, but i am sure with all the knowledge on here one may have a way to make it work in the fella's favor. It is one thing to explain how something works, it is another to physically shown them. IMO if you can physically show a piece of equipment/appliance creating an overload thus tripping the breaker it may keep the interest of the group, especially if using a meter to monitor the load. Doing this with a fuse would be much easier but fuses are not used much anymore nor have the safety abilities of a breaker.

It was just a thought on my part. I do not know how far the OP wants to take this learning lesson.
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:23 PM   #65
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


Between proffer and 480, I am just breakin' up over here. Thanks for the entertainment....the Cleese remark sent me off the deep end. Sometimes ya' just get tired of talkin' to folks, ya' know?
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Old 07-28-2013, 11:33 AM   #66
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


If the display could e set up to plug into an outlet and be a live panel then install AFCI or GFCI type breakers that supply an outlet using just a cheap plug in GFCI tester with a push button will trip the breakers safely
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Old 07-28-2013, 06:00 PM   #67
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


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If the display could e set up to plug into an outlet and be a live panel then install AFCI or GFCI type breakers that supply an outlet using just a cheap plug in GFCI tester with a push button will trip the breakers safely
It would get damned expensive to load the panel up with GFCI breakers.
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Old 07-28-2013, 07:31 PM   #68
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


I don't know if this setup will work with SQD QO breakers with the trip indicator flags, but I've done this type of thing before with a piece of monofilament fishing line connected to the trip latch plate inside the circuit breaker. I found that on the original so called "interchangeable" style breakers, like the T&B, Siemens, Murray, etc., the trip latch mechanism is located almost directly behind the screw terminal for the branch circuit wiring. After you drill out the rivets that hold the molded case together and separate the two halves, you'll see that there is usually a small factory made slot in the case right above the screw terminal that leads outside the breaker. I attached a fishing line to the factory hole in the latch plate and ran it through that slot and out of the breaker. After you move the breaker handle to the on position, you pull the fishing line and the breaker "trips" and the handle moves to the mid position. You can use a KO in the panel that is in line with the breaker to run the fishing line outside the panelboard to make it easier to use. It's probably not a perfect solution, but maybe you can make something similar work for your particular situation.

I still have an old T&B single-pole breaker here with the fishing line connected to it. I can post a pic later if you want, but I no longer have any decent photo editing software to help highlight any of the internals.
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Old 07-29-2013, 07:12 AM   #69
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


Looks like the person in this YouTube video did basically the same thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pfo02XWQ2yY
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Old 07-29-2013, 07:52 AM   #70
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


I remember 7th grade shop class, the teacher whose name was "Tank", had us work with live circuits when wiring two-way and three-way switched circuits...not one of us died that school year from his class :-) Liability scare has come a looooong way-huh?
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Old 07-29-2013, 07:58 AM   #71
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


with no power, how about getting a tall box with lots of breakers (maybe 20 or 40??-I'm not an electrician) and have a large piece of thick paper (or cardboard) with a cutout in the middle showing ONLY FOUR BREAKERS (two and two), where one of the four is tripped. Student #1 looks at that series of four breakers, identify's the culprit, resets and you are ready to move the paper down the next series of four breakers, which you would have set up the entire panel before hand (in groups of four).

If you need more breakers for the students to evaluate, do them in groups of two, but still show four-the caveat is that of the four breakers the students see, the top two will always be not tripped (hmmm, is there a better word for this?)

This is for Scouts-I KNOW there are electrician's out there that will loan you a box and breakers for the education of our youth.

If you were still needing to trip breakers in the box, if there is some room between them (maybe 2-3 slots), try a small ball pean hammer vs your hand-don't know if it will work though
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Old 07-29-2013, 11:32 AM   #72
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


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Originally Posted by 72chevy4x4 View Post
I remember 7th grade shop class, the teacher whose name was "Tank", had us work with live circuits when wiring two-way and three-way switched circuits...not one of us died that school year from his class :-) Liability scare has come a looooong way-huh?
Liability isn't what scares me. It's our litigious society..... people making millions suing for the most insignificant thing.
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Old 07-30-2013, 07:07 AM   #73
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


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Liability isn't what scares me. It's our litigious society..... people making millions suing for the most insignificant thing.
Scary thing right there and one of several reasons why i left Corrections. Every one of us had lawsuits against us, the Sgt's had many. I know of several Officers who are still facing court after they moved on from Corrections. Some of these accusations were for verbal altercations where the inmate felt a remark was derogatory or they felt we handled them roughly. Since we were responsible for care, custody and control we often had a lawsuit against us for lack of the 3 C's when an inmate got in a fight with another in your housing unit. Imagine facing a lawsuit where you may have made a mistake, a fight broke out between 2 dirtbags and now you face losing everything you own personally because these dirt bags have nothing to lose and everything to gain, from you!

Same goes for any other yahoo on the street. Amazing how many people survive financially by sueing others and settling out of court. It is around us everyday. Kind of like a lottery, sooner or later one of us will pick that "winner" who tries to take what we earned over the simplest mistake whether they were injured or not.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:21 AM   #74
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


Do you have any GFCI or arc fault breakers in your panel? Those can be tripped by using a testing device plugged into a receptacle on the circuit controlled by the GFCI or arc fault breaker safely and with no harm done to the breaker, wiring or receptacle from intentionally causing a short. If you don't have one of these type breakers in your panel maybe you could replace an existing standard breaker with one if existing wiring will permit it.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:29 AM   #75
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


Have you heard of company called Blitz? They used to manufacture gas can's, you probably own one. Well they got sued and put out of business because stupid people were pouring GASOLINE out of their cans onto open flames and burning themselves. Slimey lawyers brought a negligence case against them won big in court.
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Old 08-04-2013, 07:30 AM   #76
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


they probably just changed the company name and moved all operations to china..
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:07 AM   #77
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


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Originally Posted by Silicon Slick View Post
Do you have any GFCI or arc fault breakers in your panel? Those can be tripped by using a testing device plugged into a receptacle on the circuit controlled by the GFCI or arc fault breaker safely and with no harm done to the breaker, wiring or receptacle from intentionally causing a short. If you don't have one of these type breakers in your panel maybe you could replace an existing standard breaker with one if existing wiring will permit it.
Geez.... does anyone read threads any more?




Once again,.............the panel will NOT BE ENERGIZED.

Besides, using a GFCI breaker will make it painfully obvious which one to choose, unless you want to spend the money and fill the panel with GFCI breakers.
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Old 08-04-2013, 09:17 AM   #78
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


I still think my solution was the best....
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Old 08-04-2013, 09:59 AM   #79
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


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So what happens after it burns the first explosive charge? It never trips again....

I have no clue to your question, I'm no sparky but I've never heard that. I could be very wrong though.
Those must be FPE....
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:13 PM   #80
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Re: Forcing A Breaker To Trip


WOW!
This is a small demonstration for boyscouts and you can't pug into a 15 amp wall outlet to show your setup?
I mean just overload 1 breaker (many safe ways) And when it trips then have them reset it as long as the breaker isn't reset thousands of times.
My Boyscout days almost killed me.. Yes I know I should not have been sitting on top of the cab of the truck. Then that low tree branch!
Bam! Next I thing I know I'm at the rear of the truck with a fellow scout holding on the my boot and I'm staring at a 60's VW Beetle right behind us going 30 to get out of the mud road we were trying to navigate.
He would have ran over me. (Death by a Beetle)
I won't even go into archery lessons thing.

I dunno. Just comparing the old days to the new.

You doing a good thing and that's cool!

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