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Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground

 
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Old 12-21-2015, 11:43 PM   #1
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Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


I'm going to ask my electrician why he only drove two ground rods outside and grounded to those, but didn't ground to the ufer* ground.

In preparation, before I ask, I'm wondering ... is there any philosophy, argument, benefit, from not grounding to the ufer?

My understanding is that the ground rods are a kind of backup to the ufer? The ufer should be the primary ground?

What up?

* Sorry if 'ufer' isn't spelled right, or whatever.

Thanks
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Old 12-22-2015, 07:16 AM   #2
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


The rods are not required if you have a ufer and the ufer is a far superior electrode. Around here I did a 3 point test and had 89 ohms with 2 rods and on the same property I got 13 ohms to the ufer. Which would you want to deal with surges and lightning

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Old 12-22-2015, 08:19 AM   #3
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


A ufer is required. Sounds like your electrician is out of touch with the current code.

Lacking a ufer (such as a existing structure) , only two rods are required.
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Old 12-22-2015, 07:04 PM   #4
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


Quote:
Originally Posted by 480sparky View Post
A ufer is required. Sounds like your electrician is out of touch with the current code.
PA is still under the 2008 code. Are you saying current code requires a ufer for all new construction?
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Old 12-22-2015, 08:05 PM   #5
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


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Originally Posted by Tinstaafl View Post
PA is still under the 2008 code. Are you saying current code requires a ufer for all new construction?
Yep.

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Old 12-22-2015, 08:09 PM   #6
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


Oy and sheesh.
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Old 12-23-2015, 07:07 AM   #7
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinstaafl View Post
PA is still under the 2008 code. Are you saying current code requires a ufer for all new construction?
NC does noy enforce the ufer but I wish they would. I use it everywhere unless the builder forgets to call me.
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Old 12-23-2015, 07:21 AM   #8
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


I understand the benefits; just irked by the ever-increasing level of regulations everywhere you turn.
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Old 12-23-2015, 08:17 AM   #9
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


Thanks for the replies everyone!

Yeah, he does a lot of commercial -- hasn't done a house in a few years. He's safe and extremely knowledgable; he's very busy, working almost every day, and has been doing this for decades. Just out of the residential game too long.

He had to replace almost every outlet in the house with tamper protected. He was so pissed off, spit was flying out of his mouth while he was bitching. Took him a solid day of work to replace them all. Actuallly both of us. I took pity on him and helped by taking off the covers and unscrewing the outlets. He ALSO had to put in additional arc fault breakers.

I think his pride was hurt more than anything. I've learned over the years that the best contractors have the most pride.
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Old 12-23-2015, 08:58 AM   #10
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


Is not taking classes, especially code updates, part of the licensing renewal process?
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Old 12-23-2015, 09:31 AM   #11
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


Quote:
Originally Posted by 480sparky View Post
Is not taking classes, especially code updates, part of the licensing renewal process?
Not in Illinois or Indiana (at least the AHJ's I work in).

Tom
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Old 12-23-2015, 09:38 AM   #12
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


Who installed the Ufer? Was it inspected?
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Old 12-23-2015, 10:24 AM   #13
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


Quote:
Originally Posted by 480sparky View Post
I'd think your diagram should specify a minimum concrete area in contact with the ground, in addition to a minimum length.

Below are some excerpts from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

Ufer's original grounding scheme used copper encased in concrete. However, the high pH of concrete often causes the copper to chip and flake. For this reason, steel is often used instead of copper.

The conductivity of the soil usually determines if Ufer grounds are required in any particular area.

A disadvantage of Ufer grounds is that the moisture in the concrete can flash into steam during a lightning strike or similar high energy fault condition. This can crack the surrounding concrete and damage the building foundation.


This last one could be a pretty hard Code decision in those areas that have sandy soil and frequent lightning strikes.
http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
and illustration 5 of
http://soilandhealth.org/wp-content/...pH.bal.nut.htm

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Old 12-23-2015, 10:30 AM   #14
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


If the Ufer was not inspected and signed off prior to cover (concrete pour), then for all practicle purposes it does not exist and can't be utilized.
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Old 12-23-2015, 10:35 AM   #15
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti-wingnut View Post
If the Ufer was not inspected.
Can you narrow down these hits?
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22uf...29.LRppg0hnKcE
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Old 12-23-2015, 10:45 AM   #16
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


What's your point?
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Old 12-23-2015, 11:02 AM   #17
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti-wingnut View Post
What's your point?
As long as inspection is being brought up:
Who inspects Ufer grounds? How exactly is it done? What are the pass/fail limits?

How Code decisions are made doesn't seem to be widely available. This inspection info might be also be "made" of unobtainium.

If you believe
http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyT...471908088.html
almost no one makes decisions that meet even basic criteria. Not judges and certainly not politicians.
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Old 12-23-2015, 11:14 AM   #18
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


Quote:
Originally Posted by GettingBy View Post
As long as inspection is being brought up:
Who inspects Ufer grounds? How exactly is it done? What are the pass/fail limits?

How Code decisions are made doesn't seem to be widely available. This inspection info might be also be "made" of unobtainium.

If you believe
http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyT...471908088.html
almost no one makes decisions that meet even basic criteria. Not judges and certainly not politicians.
Ufer grounds are part of the electrical system, and should be inspected by the electrical inspector.

That is how it is codified in my area of several million people. Furthermore, in most areas where I live, they are so serious about Ufer's, and so sick and tired of these problems like the OP brought up, that Ufer systems require a pre-con so everybody is on the same page.

The links you supplied seem pointless. A bunch of talk by poor GC's and electrical contractors about what to do after the fact. Chipping out a rebar stub after the pour as your Ufer connection does nothing, because nobody knows that the rebar is twenty feet long, much less twenty inches long.

Your link to the book is completely specious.
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Old 12-23-2015, 11:17 AM   #19
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


Out here Ufer ground is inspected when you call for footing inspection prior to pour.

Not exactly rocket science.
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Old 12-23-2015, 11:26 AM   #20
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Re: Electrician Didn't Use The Ufer Ground


Quote:
Originally Posted by tjbnwi View Post
Not in Illinois or Indiana (at least the AHJ's I work in).

Tom
Still, a veteran of the trade should be smart enough to know new codes are enacted, and should take it upon himself to study and learn said new codes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GettingBy View Post
As long as inspection is being brought up:
Who inspects Ufer grounds? How exactly is it done? What are the pass/fail limits?......
'Round my neck of the woods, it's part of the pre-pour inspection of the footings. If a building inspector cannot figure it out, then there's a serious problem.

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