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240v Heat On 120 Circuit.

 
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Old 09-19-2014, 12:34 PM   #21
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Re: 240v Heat On 120 Circuit.


120v is the output on the single curcuit can be overload heat protected that why it of 120v also the control temp plays a big roll possible but im hard headed
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Old 09-19-2014, 05:21 PM   #22
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Re: 240v Heat On 120 Circuit.


Nec 200.7(C)(1) seems to permit retagging a white wire as long as it's permanently marked at each location where it's accessible.

I may be wrong in my different interpretation, but it seems to state it pretty clearly.
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Old 09-19-2014, 06:57 PM   #23
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Re: 240v Heat On 120 Circuit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dielectricunion View Post
Nec 200.7(C)(1) seems to permit retagging a white wire as long as it's permanently marked at each location where it's accessible.

I may be wrong in my different interpretation, but it seems to state it pretty clearly.

you are correct it states very clearly "if used for a single pole, 3 or 4 way switch" then goes on to explain how it can be used.

Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White or Gray^ Stripes.
(A) General.
The following shall be used only for the grounded circuit conductor, unless otherwise permitted in 200.7(B) and (C):
A conductor with continuous white or gray covering
A conductor with three continuous white or gray^ stripes on other than green insulation
A marking of white or gray color at the termination
(B) Circuits of Less Than 50 Volts.
A conductor with white or gray color insulation or three continuous white stripes or having a marking of white or gray at the termination for circuits of less than 50 volts shall be required to be grounded only as required by 250.20(A).
(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More.
The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white or gray^ stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) and (2).
If part of a cable assembly that has the insulation permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor by marking tape, painting, or other effective means at its termination and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green. If used for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops, the reidentified conductor with white or gray insulation or three continuous white or gray^ stripes shall be used only for the supply to the switch, but not as a return conductor from the switch to the outlet.

Tom
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Old 09-19-2014, 07:09 PM   #24
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Re: 240v Heat On 120 Circuit.


I think we've all read the code, the rest of us just see the part in bold as if it's in a switch, you can only retag the white for the supply to the switch.

So you're saying you'd run 10-3 to water heaters and cap the white, and 12-3 to heaters under 1920 watts an cap the white?
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Old 09-19-2014, 09:49 PM   #25
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Re: 240v Heat On 120 Circuit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden view View Post
I think we've all read the code, the rest of us just see the part in bold as if it's in a switch, you can only retag the white for the supply to the switch.

So you're saying you'd run 10-3 to water heaters and cap the white, and 12-3 to heaters under 1920 watts an cap the white?
Honestly, here we use EMT.

Yes, I would use conductors of any color but white, green, gray.

Again 200.6 prohibits color tagging a conductor below 6 AGW.

All of this applies by definition to MI or NM only. 200.6 and 200.7 address cable very specifically. Unless the definition of the material being used states it is a cable none of this matters.

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Old 09-19-2014, 10:02 PM   #26
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Re: 240v Heat On 120 Circuit.


Yeah, obviously in any kind of conduit, it would be ridiculous to retag a white for hot and is not allowed.
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Old 09-19-2014, 10:11 PM   #27
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Re: 240v Heat On 120 Circuit.


I'll clarify my statement;

If I were to run NM or any other pre made conductor set I would use /3 and abandon the white conductor in the example posted above.

You need /3 or /4 to switch outlets now. The switch outlets now require a neutral conductor.

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Old 09-20-2014, 11:41 AM   #28
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Re: 240v Heat On 120 Circuit.


I moved to Indiana from Chicago so I experienced going from a fairly strict jurisdiction to one that hasn't yet adopted NEC 2011

(Not that it matters that much since I'm not an electrician)
But I'm definitely running my house (currently slowly remodeling) with EMT
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Old 09-20-2014, 12:03 PM   #29
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Re: 240v Heat On 120 Circuit.


Now to stir things up. Here we still go by the 2008NEC and to be honest i dont keep up with the code as far as marking wires other than green is always ground. What difference does it make if the white is marked or not. Anyone with common sense knows to test all wires for voltage. The neutral is a bonded conductor so it does carry load, only reason to even mark it is to know it is bonded. To use the "white" as a non bonded conductor is normal in this business and i do not recall ever seeing it remarked as a non bonded conductor. To run 3-wire for a hot water tank or electric heat is just wasteful and less profitable IMO. 3-wire is only used for switched legs or a 240v circuit that requires a neutral for a 120v device in the 240v unit. Example: electric dryer with led display or a electric kitchen over with display.
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Old 09-20-2014, 12:04 PM   #30
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Re: 240v Heat On 120 Circuit.


Take your electrical tester and test each wire. If you test one wire against the ground and get 120 that's your hot. If you test the second wire and you get no power then it is a neutral and the heater is 120 volts. If both wires are hot, it 240. I have seen breakers improperly installed in the panel, and you will get 120 on both wires but it will not run a 240 heater. The breaker has to be installed so that it is pulling 120 from each side of the panel, not 2 x 120 volts off one leg of the panel.
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Old 09-20-2014, 02:06 PM   #31
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Re: 240v Heat On 120 Circuit.


I don't think I've ever seen 12/3 in a heater before. To be honest, most of them never even bother to tag the white conductor. Then again, there's a bunch of hacks and weekend warriors on the loose.
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Old 09-20-2014, 04:23 PM   #32
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Re: 240v Heat On 120 Circuit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dielectricunion View Post
I moved to Indiana from Chicago so I experienced going from a fairly strict jurisdiction to one that hasn't yet adopted NEC 2011

(Not that it matters that much since I'm not an electrician)
But I'm definitely running my house (currently slowly remodeling) with EMT
I'm also in Indiana, your prevailing electrical code code is 675 IAC 13-25-26 Chapter 27. It is automatically the code in the entire state, whether adopted by your AHJ or not.

Simply the IAC states that the adopted electrical code is the Indiana Electrical code (which is the NEC with Indiana amendments), presented to the State Legislature by the Indiana Fire Marshall. Once adopted by the legislature it is the code for the state.

I believe the IEC 2011 goes into affect the end of this or next month.

For at least 2 code cycles AFI's were amended out of the IEC.

Tom

Last edited by tjbnwi; 09-20-2014 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 09-20-2014, 04:26 PM   #33
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Re: 240v Heat On 120 Circuit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by woodchuck2 View Post
Now to stir things up. Here we still go by the 2008NEC and to be honest i dont keep up with the code as far as marking wires other than green is always ground. What difference does it make if the white is marked or not. Anyone with common sense knows to test all wires for voltage. The neutral is a bonded conductor so it does carry load, only reason to even mark it is to know it is bonded. To use the "white" as a non bonded conductor is normal in this business and i do not recall ever seeing it remarked as a non bonded conductor. To run 3-wire for a hot water tank or electric heat is just wasteful and less profitable IMO. 3-wire is only used for switched legs or a 240v circuit that requires a neutral for a 120v device in the 240v unit. Example: electric dryer with led display or a electric kitchen over with display.
I know the use of a tagged white lead as an ungrounded conductor is a common practice. I was just pointing out it is a violation of the NEC unless there has been an amendment by the AHJ.

How common is common sense?

Tom

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