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What Would You Do....

 
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Old 01-14-2010, 02:29 PM   #1
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What Would You Do....


or how would you handle this:

Doing a flood house, homie had 80% of the existing drywal cut and removed 3' up from floor. I call my drywall sub, who i have been friends with since 5th grade and using for years, to bid it. Ask if he wanted to take a look at the job (he already knew the job since they initally hung all the new stuff and finished it 4yrs ago when we converted this garage stall into living space). He just asked for a run down and told me to bid it at $1.20/sqft and i provide the drywall since homie had most torn down already. I ran the numbers on 25 sheets and told him the price and asked if that was right, it sounded low...he said that's fine since they dont have much to do and it'll be a quick fill in job.

Back history, many years ago, one of the first jobs i hired him was to tape/texture a bathroom we hung the rock, he did it moonlighting from his company for $300. I get a call that night from homie, after ddrywall buddy said it was done, asking who was going to clean up the mess....they never laid down rosin paper, taped anything off, so i had to pay to carpet clean their living room where they tracked mud on their shoes across it, spent hours scrubbing the fixtures of overspray, then had a nice long chat about common sense, laying down protection, cleaning up and he told me, that's going to be extra...okay, that's fine with me, i just dont like angry calls from homies, so next time you bid a job figure a COMPLETE job like everybody else in town does. Things went great the following years and they handled it like a real drywall outfit.

Yesterday afternoon, buddy calls and said they're done with this job, but it's going to cost $2160.....$860 more than he originally told me. I asked how/why so i have something to try to explain to homie why the huge increase out of the blue...."I dunno, tell'em we had to hang more rock than expected, i cant do it for that price i told ya, i dont know what i was thinking" That night homie calls piiiiissed off, asking if this is how they normally leave their jobs, since you guys (meaning us) always picked everything up before we left. I was told about the huge pile of scrap in the driveway, and excess dust all over the floors, mud globs and texture all over the floors....which we have to tile and install laminate flooring over soon...so i told homie i'll be out first thing in the a.m. so i get out there today, spent an hour picking up all the snow covered **** they left int he driveway and loading it into my dumptruck, then braced myself to go inside and about blew a gasket, esspecially since late late last night homie calls to cancel $1800 worth of work i had bid as part of the scope to offset the increased drywall cost.

I called and left a message on my buddies VM since he did'nt answer, i honestly kept my cool since getting bent outta shape never made things easier to deal with and asked how i was getting charged $860 more than quoted, now i have to pick up everything they left behind, pay for the landfill fee, now i have to pay a guy to spend a day over there with an ice scraper chipping up the dried up mud, then use a scrub brush to wash it all down, and then mop up the entire bottom floor because they did'nt put down any rosin paper or take things away when they were done, all in all i'll be over $2200 lost in sales and clean up on my end because of his oversight and lack of responsiblity. He called back few minutes later hollaring like a 12yr old girl he was so worked up, F me, F you, i did that job for peanuts already so i was'nt going to spend any more time taping things off or cleaning it up, your a f'in ***, F you, do what you want, your a fing *** dont ever fing call me again, f you...and then hung up on me.

So how would you handle this, in light of above scenario and pics below...keep in mind tile and laminate flooring are going down:







then my dump truck 3/4 load of sheetrock, and junk left behind
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Old 01-14-2010, 02:31 PM   #2
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Re: What Would You Do....


Business is business and freinds are freinds comes to mind and my gut says:
Pay him the original quote because he was too lazy to come check it out in person

Other part of me says pay him the total he wants, eat yet another ****ing disaster and never have him work for us again and never give a referral

nother part says deduct the exact time and costs it's going to take to get the concrete floor showing again from the new total he wants


Basically, i feel he phucked me first, being a friend he dropped the ball big time, the work they did was great, no complaints, the mess made me look like an asshole to the customer, so in essence, he drew first blood with no respect towards me and my company....so do i phuck him back and let him eat it since it was basically all his doing in the first place that caused this drama? When i called him this a.m. all i wanted was for him to say he'd help clean up the disaster left behind and it'd a been all good....but when i answered the phone to a shrill voice dropping F bombs on me and then getting hung up on, i was pissed.

Worst part, like i said, freinds for many many years, we all run in the same group of buddies so that's akward too. I'm leaning on giving it a day for him to cool the hell out, giving him exactly what he wants so he cant call me a welcher, and never referring him again....but i'm torn since i'm tired of cleaning up other peoples messes and taking a financial hit on their behalf....like i said above, i LOST $2200 with homie abolishing aspects i had bid, plus clean up time and fees, and esspecially in this case since what phucking drywaller does'nt paper the floor and charges extra, like it's an option, to do so?? UGGGHHHHH:headbash:

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Old 01-14-2010, 03:22 PM   #3
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Re: What Would You Do....


He knew the job and what was involved, then quoted you a price. You don't quote a price and change it after the job starts. Thats BS. Also, doing work in a workman-like manner was not achieved. Thats just standard practice, period. I'd pay him what he quoted minus the clean up costs. I'd also document everything he did with plenty of photos, and video.

It sounds like hes got serious troubles behind the scenes and is losing his self control. I'd talk to him a few days and see of hes still that way. If so, dump him.


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Old 01-14-2010, 03:41 PM   #4
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Re: What Would You Do....


You call him back and scream F you, F him, F this!!!!!! LOL

You already know what to do. You pay him the orginal amount, you deduct your time and expenses as a back charge and put in the memo area of the check "Now you really have something to be upset about A-hole". And you don't ever call him again. You just gave yourself a raise cause dumping this idiot will make you more money over the next few years. I find it hard to believe he had one incident a few years and ago and then one now and nothing wrong inbetween. I'm sure he had a lot of BS crap that he pulled between the two times that you have just let slide.

Screw him. Some people are their own worst enemies.

Nothing I find more telling of how completly stupid somebody is then this type of experience when you hand them a job on a silver platter, ask them to put a number on it with no strings attached, no nothing, no "I need it cheap, help me out.." no nothing, just put your number on it. Then they bid it too low on their own, do a sh**ty job and then blame you because they bid it too low, like they were doing you a favor, like you twisted their arm to bid it so low they couldn't do a good job.

Total Turd.

Good ridance. You just got a raise.
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Old 01-14-2010, 04:42 PM   #5
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Re: What Would You Do....


LOL Mike, i agree i'm just torn with the long term freindship deal, the fact most of all my buddies are his buddies so the long term snide comments from the folks he tells that wont get the truth or whole story and will try to make me look like a welcher/jerk even though the fault lies solely on his shoulders for 1. not even bothering to go look at the job in the first place just to reconfirm his thoughts and 2. actually thinking "precautionary measures" or picking up after ones self is an "extra"???!!

I've never called desperate or in a predicerment and asked "help me out" or "how cheap can you do this" because frankly i could give two chits, I know all my subs on in business to make money, so if they bid a job at $***X then that's what it is- period. IF homie has a problem with pricing and wants to trim fat, THEN and only then will i start deducting work or looking for other subs on my rolledex that are'nt the first one i typically call.....When i contact a sub, pending not uncovering a bunch of stuff nobody was prepared for, i expect them to honor their price and keep me int he loop when things change. I also, and this may sound crazy, but i'm a crazy guy like this....I expect when i get a bid from a roofer that they include disposal- seriously i do, i did'nt just make that up. When i get a bid for a plumbing job i expect them to pick up any broken concrete/old pipe/fixtures/etc....before they leave since that junk was'nt laying there prior to them showing up, so why should it just get left behind, WTF good is it doing the HO or me and my crew?? this "I have to bid putting down rosin paper/carpet protection/flooring protection" i dont buy it....it goes with the job IMO.

Saddest part, lately when i try new subs, i'm just getting blown away with the premaddona BS, we did a flip house that got new carpet/linolieum and needed new luan laid first. the flooring sub acted like he was clueless when i had him figure laying the subfloor so we could focus on another aspect....and THEN had to have me come over and show him how to lay it out, lend him the tools and fasteners to isntall it because "i'm not set up for this, we just put the flooring down" and sadly, the more subs i come into contact with on various jobsites weather i hire them or homies do are doing less and less work but wanting full pay...they just want to focus exclusively and solely on 1 aspect......just like this drywall sub, one of the early jobs i wanted him to bid, i figured they'd handle it all, including HANGING....oh no, "we dont do that, we hire that part out" i thought you were a drywall company?? "we are, but we just tapemud/texture"....wow was all i could say to that
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Old 01-14-2010, 05:13 PM   #6
 
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Re: What Would You Do....


What does your sub-contract agreement state? If the work description states to install *** drywall, *** corner bead, tape and finish *** inside corners and field, finish *** outside corners, and sand for $1000.00 then that is all that is required from all parties involved. If it states the aforementioned and cover and protect floors, remove debris and place in dumpster located on premises ( supplied by IHI), and clean work area, then you can back charge for your time finishing the work as he did not fulfill that part of the contract obligation.

It is not your problem that he underbid the work. That is called risk and is assumed by anyone owning/operating a business. He is still contractually obligated to finish the job at the rate he entered into agreement at.
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Old 01-14-2010, 05:33 PM   #7
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Re: What Would You Do....


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What does your sub-contract agreement state? If the work description states to install *** drywall, *** corner bead, tape and finish *** inside corners and field, finish *** outside corners, and sand for $1000.00 then that is all that is required from all parties involved. If it states the aforementioned and cover and protect floors, remove debris and place in dumpster located on premises ( supplied by IHI), and clean work area, then you can back charge for your time finishing the work as he did not fulfill that part of the contract obligation.

It is not your problem that he underbid the work. That is called risk and is assumed by anyone owning/operating a business. He is still contractually obligated to finish the job at the rate he entered into agreement at.
I'll be honest and let the flamers have their way with me, i have a select group of folks i work with, and have worked with for years. I use them because i know what to expect, and they work with me because they know what to expect so 99% of the things i do sub out, is just us walking through together and verbally going over what needs to be done. Most of our work is idiot proof, and when i say that, i mean painfully obvious. When i have my roofer look at a job and i say replace everything, that means removal everything up there from the drip edge to the venting and install new, haul away the old crap...pretty straight forward. My electrical guy i tell him what we're doing, he makes notes and then runs with it when/if we sell the job, same with the plumber...my drywall sub normally it's a room/rooms and they're job is pretty cut and dry by any admission...hang rock on framing we installed, tape, mud, and texture. He'll ask if they're providing the rock or am I.

Boils down to they've been slow since almost all of their work is new construct, so financces are tight, his wife has'nt worked in some time and they're living off his wages...which he told me they laid everybody off for about 6 weeks this year so far, and future job outlook is'nt great either...so i know he's stressed out about that, as most of us are, he just dropped the ball on bidding and since he never deals with the clients, has no clue about how it affects things when you just decided to add half as much again to a job because "I dont know what i was thinking"

Same handshake deals are very very common around here/my area, i subbed a number of years before venturing out and never ever heard of sub contractor agreements until this place. If there was a job that needed to be done, I/we did it or do it- pretty simple. If there was a problem, i made a phone call- pretty simple, but the longer i do this job, the more evident it is becoming at the amount of oblivious folks in the trades...more than i ever gave credit for
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Old 01-14-2010, 05:34 PM   #8
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Re: What Would You Do....


That why they call it between a rock and a hard place!
I agree with Mike - and I see your point of view - My call, you both f-up.

Him for not going to see it - and you for not checking in on him and letting him leave the the place a mess.

Split the difference and let him cool his heals for a few months.
my 2 cents

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Old 01-14-2010, 05:49 PM   #9
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Re: What Would You Do....


Go sit down with the guy & have a couple beers & have a civil conversation on the subject & work it out where you're both mutually happy. (or unhappy)
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Old 01-14-2010, 06:08 PM   #10
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Re: What Would You Do....


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Go sit down with the guy & have a couple beers & have a civil conversation on the subject & work it out where you're both mutually happy. (or unhappy)
That is exactly what i'm going to do, planned to do. As of today with his antics he was "unreachable" mentally, dude focking lost it, so i want to give him some time to chill the helll out, and this way it will allow me to get a true life/accurate financial cost of what his negligence actually cost me. Hopefully he'll STFU and really absorb the situation.....

So i have 3 hours worth of running and clean up today. Tomorrow i have a guy going over to use an ice scraper i sharpened with a grinder, and a flat shovel i sharpened with a grinder to scrape the floor (more of my time vested), then sweep it up. Then i got a hard short bristle brush on a stick to scrub the floor and loosen up all the texture and bull****, then mop up all the white milkey slop off the floor to show concrete again..there will undoubtedly be a single guy working 5-6 hrs over there tomorrow cleaning up this sheot coupled with my 3 today. So now i'll have roughly 8-9 hours vested in clean up because he thought putting down a few rolls of rosin paper was going to take too much time and eat into his margin....Like I said, I lost $1800 worth of work that got cancelled and then add to that the time lost to clean up his mess...this is a hit on MY wallet double time.

I'll pay him his full amount, i wont be happy, but at least this way i'm not the azzole, i'm not the welcher, i'm not the "typical general contractor".....but I just hope this catches up with him sooner than later...i know i wont be forgetting it anytime soon
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Old 01-14-2010, 06:13 PM   #11
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Re: What Would You Do....


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Originally Posted by IHI View Post
LOL Mike, i agree i'm just torn with the long term freindship deal, the fact most of all my buddies are his buddies so the long term snide comments from the folks he tells that wont get the truth or whole story and will try to make me look like a welcher/jerk even though the fault lies solely on his shoulders for 1. not even bothering to go look at the job in the first place just to reconfirm his thoughts and 2. actually thinking "precautionary measures" or picking up after ones self is an "extra"???!!
You don't think his/your buddies know his deal. I don't care if your a friend or not, he shouldn't have talked to you like he did.

Take out the business aspect, if your friend talked to you like that, would you still be friends with him just because you were unsure what mutual friends would think?

Take out the frienship part, if a sub talked to you like that, would you still be using him as a sub?

I would think both answers are no, which is why those wiser than me advise us not to mix business with pleasure.

I'm with Finley on this one, F-that guy!
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Old 01-14-2010, 06:30 PM   #12
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Re: What Would You Do....


If you're so anal about the floors being covered you should have said something or covered them yourself since you knew you'd need a spotless floor to do your work on.
In that picture I see a kitchen table so I'm sure there's more crap to be tripping over and moving for the rocker to do his work.
Why was there not a dumpster on the job? Does not really matter as I suppose it is our responsibility to get rid of it.
Chill out a bit. I'm just showing our side of the equation.
I'd be happy if my subs left it that clean.
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Old 01-14-2010, 06:38 PM   #13
 
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Re: What Would You Do....


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I'll be honest and let the flamers have their way with me, i have a select group of folks i work with, and have worked with for years. I use them because i know what to expect, and they work with me because they know what to expect so 99% of the things i do sub out, is just us walking through together and verbally going over what needs to be done. Most of our work is idiot proof, and when i say that, i mean painfully obvious. When i have my roofer look at a job and i say replace everything, that means removal everything up there from the drip edge to the venting and install new, haul away the old crap...pretty straight forward. My electrical guy i tell him what we're doing, he makes notes and then runs with it when/if we sell the job, same with the plumber...my drywall sub normally it's a room/rooms and they're job is pretty cut and dry by any admission...hang rock on framing we installed, tape, mud, and texture. He'll ask if they're providing the rock or am I.

Boils down to they've been slow since almost all of their work is new construct, so financces are tight, his wife has'nt worked in some time and they're living off his wages...which he told me they laid everybody off for about 6 weeks this year so far, and future job outlook is'nt great either...so i know he's stressed out about that, as most of us are, he just dropped the ball on bidding and since he never deals with the clients, has no clue about how it affects things when you just decided to add half as much again to a job because "I dont know what i was thinking"

Same handshake deals are very very common around here/my area, i subbed a number of years before venturing out and never ever heard of sub contractor agreements until this place. If there was a job that needed to be done, I/we did it or do it- pretty simple. If there was a problem, i made a phone call- pretty simple, but the longer i do this job, the more evident it is becoming at the amount of oblivious folks in the trades...more than i ever gave credit for
O.K. so you have a verbal contract. He still agreed to perform the work for a fixed amount. It was understood that you expected him to protect the floor and clean up based on your previous conversation(s) and jobs. If you accepted the verbal "change order" then you are obligated to pay the additional costs. Either way the job was not completed. You should back charge the time and materials you invest into completing this verbal but still contractual obligation. That is more than fair IMO.

His problems are not your concern. Your business, customers, business reputation, and well being of your family are your concerns. Who cares what anybody else thinks as long as you know you are doing what you are obligated contractually and morally to do.

Coincidentally, I would not use him again in the future. He has proven to be extremely unprofessional and does not have the common sense to protect what business relationships he still has. I would also recommend looking into a sub-contractor agreement to avoid ever being in this situation again.
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Old 01-14-2010, 06:45 PM   #14
 
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Re: What Would You Do....


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If you're so anal about the floors being covered you should have said something or covered them yourself since you knew you'd need a spotless floor to do your work on.
In that picture I see a kitchen table so I'm sure there's more crap to be tripping over and moving for the rocker to do his work.
Why was there not a dumpster on the job? Does not really matter as I suppose it is our responsibility to get rid of it.
Chill out a bit. I'm just showing our side of the equation.
I'd be happy if my subs left it that clean.
There was a dumpster shown in the pics posted above. When your bidding a job I would hope you have the sense to go look at the job and charge accordingly. I don't believe the issue is with paying the cost to protect the premises, perform the work, and clean up or scrap out when done. The issue is the guy didn't bother to go see the job and price it accordingly. Then when he gave the additional cost he didn't account for what he knew was expected based on previous jobs to complete the project.
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Old 01-14-2010, 06:52 PM   #15
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Re: What Would You Do....


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Business is business and freinds are freinds comes to mind and my gut says:
Pay him the original quote because he was too lazy to come check it out in person
Your gut is right.

Leme get this straight.
He is pissed because HE under bid the job and now wants more money from you.
He did not want to properly protect the work area because he under bid but now he wants more money from you for the "extra" work ?
I don't think so.
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Old 01-14-2010, 06:56 PM   #16
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Re: What Would You Do....


Small towns, thing happen differently. Everybody knows each other, everybody wants to be a good ole boy. However you can still be the guy known in town to have his sh*t together and works by the book or you can choose not to. I understand.

It's all going to boil down to your gut and how you want it all to work out. Doing what's right in the long run often is not connected to who is right, but who can see the big picture and the long run and bend accordingly. Even if you choose to bend for the guy for the sake of your friendship or to do some preventative damage control, you now know you shouldn't ever do any business with the guy.

I know you don't want to use sub-contractor agreements, but this is what they are for and what they will prevent. If you choose not to use them you have to accept the possibility of these things coming up once in a while and accept the fact that when they do you'll be right back where you are today, having to decide what's right for the long run versus whats actually right. Just part of the cost of doing business based on how you want to run your business. No big deal.
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:37 PM   #17
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Re: What Would You Do....


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If you're so anal about the floors being covered you should have said something or covered them yourself since you knew you'd need a spotless floor to do your work on.
In that picture I see a kitchen table so I'm sure there's more crap to be tripping over and moving for the rocker to do his work.
Why was there not a dumpster on the job? Does not really matter as I suppose it is our responsibility to get rid of it.
Chill out a bit. I'm just showing our side of the equation.
I'd be happy if my subs left it that clean.

So if i sub a siding job, should i expect the company paying me to put up the fanfold? If i were to sub a roof should i expect the company paying me to come out and put the felt paper on for me? Why in the world would i be expected to cover the floors when 4 other subs i've worked side by side with just do it, as well as every new home or home being reno'ed that we're a part of the drywallers just naturally take the initative to cover floors up and tape off/cordin off area's since their profession- as you very well know- is a terribly nasty aspect, one of the dirtiest/dustiest aspects in our trades. Good lord, maybe taking steps to leave behind a profession jobsite in the drywall trades really is unheard of. I dont personally know, until now naturally, anybody who could conciously just destroy a place like this and think it's "business as usual"....

All of those pictures are the rooms in the state that they worked in, there was that POS table they used to set their sodas on and the homie had his ciagr ashtray on. The bedroom that had the vacuum cleaner/step ladder, the bathroom had the front load washer/dryer.....so IMO given the space you seen in the pictures, not all that much to work around, LORD KNOWS that i and most folks here have worked around worst...to me, this jobsite was wide open, could'nt ask for a more wide open space minus those few easily shoved items.....but things are becoming more clear with the drywall trade yet again

In the 20+yrs i've been doing this, you know what i used as a dumpster before i rented them and finally bought a dump truck....i used my pick up to haul away my junk. they happened to have 2 pick up's on site plus their van so lack of means to get rid of stuff is'nt an excuse...laziness, or like i'm seeing now, lack of repsonisbilty/accountability is since apparently the rules every other trade obides by does'nt apply to rockers??

No, they wil never work for me again, no i will not give them referrals, they can continue to slow down since obviously they need to make some MAJOR operating overhauls to be eligible to work for any GC that wants a smooth and clean jobsite during a reno. I understand what your saying by pointing thsi stuff out, but to be honest, all the EXCUSES you give, i've heard before trying to pawn off responsibility for aspects, that IMO...GO WITH THE JOB!!! What's next in your trade:
"We dont lift the rock into place, we just screw it, anything different we charge more"
"We dont cut the rock, we just snap it anything different we charge more"

seemingly these are the excuses that seem to tag along with more and more subs, they dont want to do the job that they are selling, it's always somebody elses fault/job/responsiblity...just wish i was afforded that excuse, but sadly i keep finding myself int he position taking up the slack these subs dont think is "part of their job".....kinda goes back to you thinking I should've papered the floor....that is just beyond words, and i cant believe you honestly wrote and/or believe that....but then i look at your trade, and like i said before....things are becoming more clear

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Old 01-14-2010, 07:41 PM   #18
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Re: What Would You Do....


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Originally Posted by IHI View Post
That is exactly what i'm going to do, planned to do. As of today with his antics he was "unreachable" mentally, dude focking lost it, so i want to give him some time to chill the helll out, and this way it will allow me to get a true life/accurate financial cost of what his negligence actually cost me. Hopefully he'll STFU and really absorb the situation.....

So i have 3 hours worth of running and clean up today. Tomorrow i have a guy going over to use an ice scraper i sharpened with a grinder, and a flat shovel i sharpened with a grinder to scrape the floor (more of my time vested), then sweep it up. Then i got a hard short bristle brush on a stick to scrub the floor and loosen up all the texture and bull****, then mop up all the white milkey slop off the floor to show concrete again..there will undoubtedly be a single guy working 5-6 hrs over there tomorrow cleaning up this sheot coupled with my 3 today. So now i'll have roughly 8-9 hours vested in clean up because he thought putting down a few rolls of rosin paper was going to take too much time and eat into his margin....Like I said, I lost $1800 worth of work that got cancelled and then add to that the time lost to clean up his mess...this is a hit on MY wallet double time.

I'll pay him his full amount, i wont be happy, but at least this way i'm not the azzole, i'm not the welcher, i'm not the "typical general contractor".....but I just hope this catches up with him sooner than later...i know i wont be forgetting it anytime soon
I've worked in your town & I'm from Small town USA too. I'm friends with a lot of the generals around here too. We do things with a handshake more often than not too, so I've got a pretty good idea where you & he are coming from. I've never been asked to sign a sub agreement with anyone I've subbed for. They tell me what they want, I write them a bid, or give them a verbal price & when they give , I order material. When my part of the job is complete, I give them a bill & they write me a check. Been doing it that way since 95 with no problems thus far.

IMO, you're doing the right thing. My bet is, after a sit down, you guys will come to a mutual agreement & work things out. Give it a day or 2, when cooler heads will prevail. Get the homeowner happy, get your check from them & work it out with your buddy at a later date. We all get our panties in a bunch from time to time & say things we wish we could take back. Hope ya keep us posted on how it works out between ya.
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:43 PM   #19
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Re: What Would You Do....


Something not exactly the same but similar happened to me recently.

I would pay him what you agreed, because that was an agreement. I would not pay him the extra he asked for. I would write him a letter explaining in detail my position, detailing expenses, loss of income, embarrassment with the client and so on. I would eat the clean up and dump etc. as a lesson learned.

I would look for new friends, 'cos you might be this guy's friend, but he ain't one of yours.
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Old 01-14-2010, 10:25 PM   #20
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Re: What Would You Do....


As a framing/drywall sub, I never clean up or protect site unless I am specifically asked to do so by GC. I also make that clear to GC before we start. GC should have laborer or site super on site any time work is going on, if for no other reason than to protect GC interests. HOWEVER, there is a GC or two that I consider to be friends, and the truth is, I will go out of my way to look out for their site, by helping laborer to clean up, or offering to protect if they supply paper etc etc... This guy should be helping you out. Heck, after all these years, and all the business you threw his way, it shouldn't be an issue. I say, have an intelligent conversation with the guy after you've all cooled down. Good luck to you.

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