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Wall Dog Screws

 
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:45 PM   #1
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Wall Dog Screws


I have a metal angle iron mirror frame that is 11'5"x6'2" its approx weight with all the metal details added, plus glass, is going to be approx 200-225lbs. Now I found these new wall dog screws that you just screw directly into drywall without having to set an anchor first. The screw has very large corse threads that supposedly do the holding. They say that 1 screw will support 50lbs...so hypothetically speaking - if I welding 15 tabs spaced evenly around the mirror frame (thats 15 screws) than the weight vs screw should be distributed evenly enough for it to hold tight and be supported with no fear of it falling 15ft to the ground.

Does the idea sound correct the way I am thinking about it or am I way off? I figured you drywall guys might know since you deal with the product I am going to be screwing into. I am of course going to try to hit some studs, but I need to be prepared for the possibility that all the studs might be missed depending on the position of the frame.

Thanks.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:50 PM   #2
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Re: Wall Dog Screws


article from pop mechanics..
http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/reviews/4224987

They were pretty happy with em, although I have never tried em myself.

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Old 07-13-2010, 11:23 PM   #3
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Re: Wall Dog Screws


You should be fine.

I anchor tonnes of stuff to drywall, drywall can hold hundreads of pounds....until it gets wet.

Personally I don't like walldogs, you get one shot with them, they do not allow you to take the screw out, put it back in or anything that needs a little bit of adjustment. Plus they don't snug down as much as I like.

For light duty I use the wall-driller type, they install really fast, hold well, install snug and the screw does not need to be tight so they are great for mounting key-hole devices. I have no idea what the part number is but I get them from Hilti with #8 screws, they use a special "DuoBit" to install.

Look like this:



For heavier duty I use Toggler anchors with the zip-tie leads that hold them in place so you can insert and remove the bolt. They require drilling a hole and cost more. Never the less they work awesome.


Raptor anchors (aka wallclaw) also work well but I don't know how they would perform in an insulated wall.
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Old 07-14-2010, 04:37 AM   #4
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Re: Wall Dog Screws


Quote:
Originally Posted by Inner10 View Post
You should be fine.

I anchor tonnes of stuff to drywall, drywall can hold hundreads of pounds....until it gets wet.

Personally I don't like walldogs, you get one shot with them, they do not allow you to take the screw out, put it back in or anything that needs a little bit of adjustment. Plus they don't snug down as much as I like.

For light duty I use the wall-driller type, they install really fast, hold well, install snug and the screw does not need to be tight so they are great for mounting key-hole devices. I have no idea what the part number is but I get them from Hilti with #8 screws, they use a special "DuoBit" to install.

Look like this:



For heavier duty I use Toggler anchors with the zip-tie leads that hold them in place so you can insert and remove the bolt. They require drilling a hole and cost more. Never the less they work awesome.


Raptor anchors (aka wallclaw) also work well but I don't know how they would perform in an insulated wall.
I agree with Inner.

Mounting a mirror that heavy you want to make sure it won't go anywhere after you leave. Wall Dogs are nice but I don't use them as much as I thought I would.

And then there's always good ol butterfly anchors. Good luck.
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:27 AM   #5
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Re: Wall Dog Screws


Butterflys will always have a place in my fastner box, I don't use them often as they are not as fast as most other anchors but there are many instances where you need the "wiggle" they provide.

15 Tabs is tonnes, if you hit a couple studs that would be fantastic.

250 pounds is not out of the relm of drywall anchors, I've seen 70 pound TVs hung off only 2 Moen anchors in half inch drywall.....I wouldn't do it but it has been done.
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:52 PM   #6
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Re: Wall Dog Screws


they say it will support the weight but my gut tells me not to trust it. i would just make sure you go directly into a stud...you don't need the drywall caving in on you

Last edited by designer-fixit; 07-15-2010 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:19 PM   #7
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Re: Wall Dog Screws


The problem we have is we needed an anchor that can be installed directly through the welded tabs with out having to remove the frame from the wall. Basically once we drag it up there approx 15 feet, I want to level it and drive my screws in asap. If it wasnt so big, and high and made of glass I wouldnt mind hold it up and marking my locations then bring it back down and install stronger anchors into the wall. I have tons of heavy duty anchors, but dont want to risk flexing the frame with the mirror in it more than I have to. So once its goes up, without braking, it has to stay up. But I like all the ideas, I need to think it out before monday and decide. Thanks guys
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:34 PM   #8
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Re: Wall Dog Screws


Do a mockup in your shop. Put on a wall,ground level, and see if yo can yank it off.

Or make a lightweight template, bring it up and at least put some good anchors in with some dogs too.
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Old 07-15-2010, 11:18 AM   #9
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Re: Wall Dog Screws


The Powers wall-dog is kinda the only fastener I can think of that will do a one shot job. Just make sure your hole size is spot on because the threads are almost as big as the head.
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Old 07-15-2010, 11:36 AM   #10
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Re: Wall Dog Screws


I would not feel right about only hanging it with walldogs FYI but walldogs and as least 2 studs you would be good to go.

For mounting large articles in hollow wall I typically hoist the piece up and screw in drywall or 1-3/4#8 in a few holes so it can't move. Then I either mark the remaining or poke a little holes with a screw, then take all the screws out, pop my anchors in.

I think I've used every type of anchor going:



Like I said butterflys are a PITA, but there are a lot of situations where it is your only option.

The second on left is a great anchor, realls strong easy install but sometimes they don't deploy and you have a PITA of a time getting it to work.

Third kind works well.....but if you don't drill a hole you risk a serious blowout...plus you NEED a different kind for 5/8 1/2 3/8 wallboard.

Fourth is the same concept, same weaknesses but you have to drill a clean hole, if your hole is slightly off or the paper is weak on the drywall it will bore right through the wallboard...then you better believe your using a butterfly.

Plastic are crap, they are weak in walls and fatigue in brick and pull out if under any load.

Walldrillers are not the strongest but they are fast, screw can be removed very versatile anchor. My "bread and butter".

Wall-Claw aka Raptors, very good anchor.

Here's the Moen heavy duty one I was talking about, based on the grab-bar mount:

http://www.moen.com/securemount
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Old 07-17-2010, 11:09 PM   #11
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Re: Wall Dog Screws


Well the contractor that put that wall up just filled me in that the studs are metal, so the wall dogs are out for hitting the studs...most things are out. Looks like I have to make the template and go with toggles now and use the wall dogs on the sides and bottom. But the top has 6 tabs welded on so all of those will have toggles for sure, especially since there is a 5ft 3 dimensional steel martini glass that hangs off the frame over the crowd and it pulls from the top of the frame. What a mess...looks really cool to see it, but not fun trying to hang the damn thing.

Thanks for all the input, its going up Tuesday after we spray it with 2 more coats of clear.
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Old 07-18-2010, 08:19 AM   #12
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Re: Wall Dog Screws


I'd be a little nervous hanging that just from drywall when it could kill a few people if it ever fell. Why don't you just cut out some of the drywall behind the mirror so you can add some blocking? If you do it neatly, you can put the same piece of drywall back that you took out. Then you won't have to worry about seeing your mirror and frame on the 11:00 news one night.
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Old 07-18-2010, 12:10 PM   #13
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Re: Wall Dog Screws


Tabs with oversize holes located at studs to hang and adjust it. Adjacent screw size holes tabs with drywall anchors to hold it in final place.
Or
Some type of metal french cleat ?
Level cleat on wall and secure to studs, hang mirror and lock on.
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Old 07-18-2010, 12:19 PM   #14
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Re: Wall Dog Screws


Just read your new post.
I would get some blocking in the wall. Almost all of those anchor stats are based on shear not tension.
Even better, as overkill as it may sound. I'd get an engineer to design a mounting procedure. It has to be cheaper than the cost of a metal martini glass and mirror falling into a crowd.
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Old 07-18-2010, 05:13 PM   #15
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Re: Wall Dog Screws


I would never ever suggest hanging a 200lb mirror using any type of wall hangers. It's got to be direct to studs and that's all. A sheetrock blowout with 200lbs pulling straight down would be disasterous and the momentum of the first letting go would likely pull the rest out.

I've never tried this, but....if you took an aluminum straight bar (such as an 1/8") and drill into the studs where available AND use some strong wall connectors (I would suggest the conical shaped drillers, but predrill as they have a tendancy to wander off a perfectly placed hole). Then hang the mirror off the bar which should be acting in unison to spread the force to many different anchors.

If the studs are metal, I would use the first toggle on Inner10's picture (great pict by the way) for the studs and still use the steel bar-some metal studs are a little flimsy, really should be determined by the real weight and projection from the wall.
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Old 07-19-2010, 10:51 PM   #16
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Re: Wall Dog Screws


I should have mentioned this...the mirror frame is a large frame with a bunch of smaller frames in it, thus leaving basically the entire wall behind it exposed. That is why this has been such a headache. If it were one big frame with a sheet of mirror blocking the wall I would tear the hell out of that wall to add something to support it. But since the wall already has some fancy paint finish on it and you will be able to see it I can do much else, especially cutting into it. Its going up tuesday but I pretty much left the entire day open for the installation instead of 2-3 hours because until I get there and we start figuring it out at least there is time to run to the store if need be even if its several trips.

Wish me luck and thanks for all the great ideas...I am taking a print out of all the posts with me in case we need to run through 'em.
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Old 07-19-2010, 11:40 PM   #17
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Re: Wall Dog Screws


As long as you hit a few studs you are in good shape, if they are the thin drywall grade studs then you can run #8/10 wood screws right through them. Just get some screws with a short shoulder (shoulder has a lot more shear strength).

I would strongly suggest putting it up, marking and taking it down....or template to save your arms.

There is not a doubt in my mind that drywall anchors are up to the job UNLESS the wallboard gets wet. I had a service call for a 30 pound speaker that tore off a wall (I didn't install it), wall board got a little damp from a leak, anchors were still intact but it took a big chunk of wall with it.
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Old 07-21-2010, 12:05 AM   #18
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Re: Wall Dog Screws


Well all I can say is I hope the wall does not get wet. It went up today. 2 ropes hung from the rafters and 4 guys. I did end up putting it up on the wall to mark it then take it down. We used 8 toggles along the top of the frame through the tabs and wall dog screws all the way around the rest of the frame.

Actually let me rephrase. 7 toggles along the top. There were 8 tabs welded on but after all the lifting and transporting etc etc it seem the frame got sqewed a bit from being flat so the far right corner tab just would not sit flat against the wall...so we skipped it all together (too far up to even notice it).

In any case, the mirror is up and seemed very solid. Gave it a pretty firm tug in certain areas which is more than it would ever receive just hanging there. Have to say I was actually shocked at how tight it was. Just glad its over and I can stop thinking about HOW everyday cuz its done.

Thanks again to you guys for all the useful info.
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Old 07-21-2010, 04:28 AM   #19
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Re: Wall Dog Screws


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