Thin Stone Application. - Masonry - Contractor Talk

Thin Stone Application.

 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-24-2015, 05:42 PM   #1
Pro
 
S.U.M's Avatar
 
Trade: Brick/Stone Mason
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Toronto ,ON,
Posts: 677
Rewards Points: 1,286

Thin Stone Application.


Had a discussion on a job today with a G.C, we have some thin veneer stone to install over concrete/cement board, he wants lath and plaster but I don't think it's nessassary over concrete board.
What is your guys preferred method when installing stone over cement/concrete board.

Also the concrete board was install on 2x4s with a gap maybe 12" in between, not a solid flat surface, should I be concerned about this, when I install the stone if there is any sort of bounce due to lack of support behind the board this could and most likely will loosen the freshly installed stone bond.

Last edited by S.U.M; 02-24-2015 at 05:54 PM.
S.U.M is offline  

Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ContractorTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

   

Advertisement

 

Old 02-24-2015, 06:22 PM   #2
Nouveau Eccentric
 
Diamond D.'s Avatar
 
Trade: masonry/hardscaping
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Historic Bucks & Cape May Counties
Posts: 1,923
Rewards Points: 2,888

Re: Thin Stone Application.


Well, O.C. Cultured Stone, wants lath over CBU if that gives you any insight.

Other manufacturers may have different requirements.

I'd use it.
You don't necessarily have to scratch it first, you can scratch and set as you go.

Personally, I like to just bang out the scratch coat, then I can concentrate on placing units.
I think it sticks better as well, no worries about slippage or sagging.

D.

Advertisement

__________________
" ROCK YOUR WORLD "


fb
Diamond D. is online now  
Old 02-24-2015, 06:39 PM   #3
Chief outhouse engineer
 
dakzaag's Avatar
 
Trade: mason
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NW Indiana
Posts: 1,418
Rewards Points: 786

Re: Thin Stone Application.


Follow the manufacture's recommendations and you won't have any trouble.

My recollection is that wire is not necessary on cement board, but I am not sure.

Did you say this is interior or exterior?

A lot of guys skip the scratch coat, but I have yet to find documentation from any manufacturer that agrees with omitting the scratch coat.
__________________
D K & Sons
The maintenance schedule for brick
1. Stand back and say "man that looks nice!"
2. Repeat as often as needed.
dakzaag is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-24-2015, 06:43 PM   #4
Pro
 
S.U.M's Avatar
 
Trade: Brick/Stone Mason
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Toronto ,ON,
Posts: 677
Rewards Points: 1,286

Re: Thin Stone Application.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dakzaag View Post
Follow the manufacture's recommendations and you won't have any trouble.



My recollection is that wire is not necessary on cement board, but I am not sure.



Did you say this is interior or exterior?



A lot of guys skip the scratch coat, but I have yet to find documentation from any manufacturer that agrees with omitting the scratch coat.

It is exterior work, I have done a lot of this work before but mostly on existing masonry walls, my main concern is the way the concrete board was installed.

Last edited by S.U.M; 02-24-2015 at 07:26 PM.
S.U.M is offline  
Old 02-25-2015, 07:41 AM   #5
Pro
 
6stringmason's Avatar
 
Trade: masonry
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Green Bay, WI
Posts: 2,368
Rewards Points: 1,136

Re: Thin Stone Application.


If its not a whole lot of sq footage, I would probably tear it off, put on OSB, or some other sheeting depending on what it is, and water proof, lathe and scratch. We've only done manufactured stone over cement board on interior fireplaces up here.
__________________
Kamps Masonry 920-680-3195
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Kamps...31566206923069
Visit our website @
http://www.concretecountertopsdesign.com/
6stringmason is offline  
Old 02-25-2015, 08:00 AM   #6
Chief outhouse engineer
 
dakzaag's Avatar
 
Trade: mason
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NW Indiana
Posts: 1,418
Rewards Points: 786

Re: Thin Stone Application.


What is the water screen consist of? If you have to add another layer to manage the water, then you are pretty well locked into a wire application.

No offense 6 string, but I would never consider OSB as an upgrade over cement board. I don't think there will be any problem with the cement board flexing if it is hung on 12" spacing.
__________________
D K & Sons
The maintenance schedule for brick
1. Stand back and say "man that looks nice!"
2. Repeat as often as needed.
dakzaag is offline  
Old 02-25-2015, 09:01 AM   #7
Pro
 
Tscarborough's Avatar
 
Trade: Monkey Scratching Cat Herder
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Austin
Posts: 6,344
Rewards Points: 1,456

Re: Thin Stone Application.


It still has wood under it. Thinset the joints, waterproof the substrate and then thinset the stone.
Tscarborough is offline  
Old 02-25-2015, 12:56 PM   #8
Pro
 
6stringmason's Avatar
 
Trade: masonry
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Green Bay, WI
Posts: 2,368
Rewards Points: 1,136

Re: Thin Stone Application.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dakzaag View Post
What is the water screen consist of? If you have to add another layer to manage the water, then you are pretty well locked into a wire application.

No offense 6 string, but I would never consider OSB as an upgrade over cement board. I don't think there will be any problem with the cement board flexing if it is hung on 12" spacing.
You dont think so? I would think nailing lathe to OSB, or similar sheathing like on home exteriors is better than cement board. Obviously you have to put the moisture barriers on it, but I'd rather be able to nail my lathe to OSB before cement board. Cement board, from my experience blows up and doesnt hold nails as well. I cant get my lathe nearly as flat and tight on CB as I can on OSB. Unless I've been doing it wrong lol. The only time we've ever used CB is for interior apps though, and we've always thinset our materials to the board.
__________________
Kamps Masonry 920-680-3195
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Kamps...31566206923069
Visit our website @
http://www.concretecountertopsdesign.com/
6stringmason is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to 6stringmason For This Useful Post:
stonelayer (03-03-2015)
Old 02-25-2015, 04:43 PM   #9
Pro
 
Nick520's Avatar
 
Trade: Mason
Join Date: May 2013
Location: CT
Posts: 414
Rewards Points: 514

Re: Thin Stone Application.


I'd prefer plywood of some sort on an exterior rather than CB. Why pay for the CB if your gonna lath over it?
Nick520 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Nick520 For This Useful Post:
dom-mas (02-25-2015)
Old 02-25-2015, 06:29 PM   #10
Pro
 
dom-mas's Avatar
 
Trade: masonry
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 8,133
Rewards Points: 626

Re: Thin Stone Application.


I only use thinset if I'm going on cement board. I'd imagine acrylic modified mortar would stick well but I KNOW thinset will

But I've only used cement board indoors. 12" spacing should be plenty. I can't see it flexing so long as adequate screws are used
__________________
New & restoration masonry construction
www.dominionmasonry.ca
dom-mas is offline  
Old 02-25-2015, 06:52 PM   #11
Pro
 
JBM's Avatar
 
Trade: Masonry
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Mass.
Posts: 7,620
Rewards Points: 9,382

Re: Thin Stone Application.


First back up.

The GC wants thin stone over a section of the house, which should have some sort of plywood on it.

I put Illuminati resistant tape on the cement board.
JBM is online now  
Old 02-25-2015, 11:39 PM   #12
Chief outhouse engineer
 
dakzaag's Avatar
 
Trade: mason
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NW Indiana
Posts: 1,418
Rewards Points: 786

Re: Thin Stone Application.


My issue with OSB exterior is it becomes vertical mulch when moisture gets to it. Cement Board will not be affected by moisture.

Ya I cover OSB all the time and usually we start with two layers of felt and then wire and scratch. While you can't nail CB very well unless you stay on the studs, it will withstand moisture a lot better. That's why I would stick with the CB. Mud the seams and apply a water barrier.

Its weird that we use the CB inside where it is very unlikely to get wet and then use OSB on the outside where moisture is almost guaranteed to penetrate.

I need to get me some of that tape...
__________________
D K & Sons
The maintenance schedule for brick
1. Stand back and say "man that looks nice!"
2. Repeat as often as needed.
dakzaag is offline  
Old 02-28-2015, 02:20 AM   #13
New Guy
 
Mark Parlee's Avatar
 
Trade: General Contractor/ Building Envelope Consultant
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Des Moines Iowa
Posts: 27
Rewards Points: 42

Re: Thin Stone Application.


If you are installing the stone directly to the CB what are you doing to make the assembly drainable.
The building code requires the assembly to be drainable.
Here is a good document to follow with installation of AMSV.

http://ncma-br.org/pdfs/masterlibrar...2nd%20Prtg.pdf

I do inspections on EIFS, Stucco, and AMSV in 5 states on homes in real estate transactions that are going into a relocation buyout. out of the last 400 buildings I have inspected I have hod only two that almost that were anywhere close to the installation guidelines.
Improperly installed and drained stone veneer is going to make the EIFS problems in this country look like a tiny drop in the bucket.
__________________
Mark Parlee
EDI Certified EIFS Inspector/Moisture Analyst/Quality Control/Building Envelope II EDI Seminar Instructor
www.thebuildingconsultant.com
Mark Parlee is offline  
Old 02-28-2015, 08:41 AM   #14
Chief outhouse engineer
 
dakzaag's Avatar
 
Trade: mason
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NW Indiana
Posts: 1,418
Rewards Points: 786

Re: Thin Stone Application.


Mr. Parlee is dead on regarding improperly installed thin stone and the like. No one seems to remember that this is basically a hard sponge attached to OSB in wet climates. What could possibly go wrong?
__________________
D K & Sons
The maintenance schedule for brick
1. Stand back and say "man that looks nice!"
2. Repeat as often as needed.
dakzaag is offline  
Old 02-28-2015, 08:43 AM   #15
Pro
 
JBM's Avatar
 
Trade: Masonry
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Mass.
Posts: 7,620
Rewards Points: 9,382

Re: Thin Stone Application.


I attempted an article as this very issue.

http://www.jbmohlermasonry.com/Mason...-stone-veneer/

and here

http://www.mason-contractor.com/outd...stone-veneers/
JBM is online now  
Old 02-28-2015, 10:36 AM   #16
Pro
 
dom-mas's Avatar
 
Trade: masonry
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 8,133
Rewards Points: 626

Re: Thin Stone Application.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Parlee View Post
If you are installing the stone directly to the CB what are you doing to make the assembly drainable.
The building code requires the assembly to be drainable.
Here is a good document to follow with installation of AMSV.

http://ncma-br.org/pdfs/masterlibrar...2nd%20Prtg.pdf

I do inspections on EIFS, Stucco, and AMSV in 5 states on homes in real estate transactions that are going into a relocation buyout. out of the last 400 buildings I have inspected I have hod only two that almost that were anywhere close to the installation guidelines.
Improperly installed and drained stone veneer is going to make the EIFS problems in this country look like a tiny drop in the bucket.
The assembly would be drainable due to the furring strips that the CB is attached to
__________________
New & restoration masonry construction
www.dominionmasonry.ca
dom-mas is offline  
Old 03-01-2015, 01:44 AM   #17
New Guy
 
Mark Parlee's Avatar
 
Trade: General Contractor/ Building Envelope Consultant
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Des Moines Iowa
Posts: 27
Rewards Points: 42

Re: Thin Stone Application.


Dom-mas
Installing the veneer directly to the cement board will allow moisture that get into the assembly to come into contact with with the cement board. Fiber cement will delaminate over time and the veneer is only stuck to the outermost layer of the cement board. When this outer layer delaminates the veneer is only adhered to a delaminating layer.
I agree that the water that gets behind the cement board will drain if everything is in place correctly with the furring strips but the furring strips do nothing to drain moisture that is between the veneer and the front face of the cement board.
__________________
Mark Parlee
EDI Certified EIFS Inspector/Moisture Analyst/Quality Control/Building Envelope II EDI Seminar Instructor
www.thebuildingconsultant.com
Mark Parlee is offline  
Old 03-01-2015, 10:48 AM   #18
Pro
 
dom-mas's Avatar
 
Trade: masonry
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 8,133
Rewards Points: 626

Re: Thin Stone Application.


Sure and if water permeates a lathed and scratch wall the scratch coat could crumble even with a rainscreen. The primary purpose of drainage planes is to stop water from permeating the wall assembly and the living space. The furring strips do a great job of that
__________________
New & restoration masonry construction
www.dominionmasonry.ca
dom-mas is offline  
Old 03-01-2015, 11:43 PM   #19
New Guy
 
Mark Parlee's Avatar
 
Trade: General Contractor/ Building Envelope Consultant
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Des Moines Iowa
Posts: 27
Rewards Points: 42

Re: Thin Stone Application.


Typically water will penetrate the lath and scratch. The double layer of grade D paper that is behind the lath and scratch is to be the drain plane and will work as long as the installer ran the paper over the foundation to the base of the assembly and lapped the weep screed.
The furring strip type of rainscreen is better. There are some other options for the rainscreen such Keene Driwall http://www.keenebuilding.com/residen...een-020-1.aspx or Gravity Cavity by MTI http://mtidry.com/

any properly applied and drained rainscreen is a step in the right direction.

The OP asked about installing the veneer over the fiber cement without lath and scratch which is a bad idea and does not meet code or the MVMA guidelines

Adhered veneer is really stucco with the masonry veneer adhered to the base or scratch as the finish. The adhered veneer application is addressed in the building codes and various ESR reports for the various products.
ESR documents are part of the code and and state refereng to the ESR documents themselves "where this document and code disagree, this document prevails"

Send me an email and I will email you and article I wrote regarding one of the veneer failures we investigated and its outcome.
At this point we have five of these cases open this year. In our state there is a fifteen statute covering construction defects and the original builder is the one responsible to cover. Most states are ten years.
__________________
Mark Parlee
EDI Certified EIFS Inspector/Moisture Analyst/Quality Control/Building Envelope II EDI Seminar Instructor
www.thebuildingconsultant.com
Mark Parlee is offline  
Old 03-02-2015, 02:49 AM   #20
Pro
 
dom-mas's Avatar
 
Trade: masonry
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 8,133
Rewards Points: 626

Re: Thin Stone Application.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Parlee View Post
The furring strip type of rainscreen is better.

.
But he also refered to the cement board being nailed @ 12" and the question of flex indicates that there is a void behind the cement board further indicating furring strips are being used. Furring the substrate out from the sheathing is one of the best ways to keep water from penetrating the building envelope. keeping the material from delaminating from the substrate isn't really the purpose of the drainage plane.

Advertisement

__________________
New & restoration masonry construction
www.dominionmasonry.ca

Last edited by dom-mas; 03-02-2015 at 02:51 AM.
dom-mas is offline  


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Thin stone 135 degree corners EthanB Masonry 12 10-22-2013 07:32 AM
Halquist thin stone Tweed11 Masonry 28 08-11-2013 02:30 PM
When the thin blue line becomes black killzoneq2 Sandblasting 6 04-24-2013 04:33 PM
Dry laid stone patio, Crushed 1A vs Sand NYCB Masonry 14 04-20-2013 09:35 PM
Stone over Dryvit Red 5 Masonry 6 04-19-2010 12:40 PM

Join Now... It's Fast and FREE!

I am a professional contractor
I am a DIY Homeowner
Drywall Talk is for
PROFESSIONAL CONTRACTORS ONLY!

At DrywallTalk.com we cater exlusivly to professional contractors who make their living as a contractor. Knowing that many homeowners and DIYers are looking for a community to call home, we've created www.DIYChatroom.com DIY Chatroom is full of helpful advices and perfect for DIY homeowners.

Redirecing in 10 seconds
No Thanks
terms of service

Already Have an Account?