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Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone

 
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Old 09-06-2014, 04:37 PM   #21
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


Whats the main reason to not use type m cement? It seems like everyone is recommending type s.

Is bluestone just difficult to work with because of its properties? We recently wet laid 3000 sq ft of 2x2' travertine patios. We used type m to 16 shoves of sand. We laid a 3/4" bed, used a notched trowel to apply thin set to the back of every stone. Out of 3000 sq ft there wasn't a single stone that made a hollow sound.

Then we lay 100 sq ft of bluestone yesterday with the same exact method. 90% of the stones have bond issues. What gives?

I did buy some type s this afternoon. I mix one bag of type s with 1 shovel of lime to 16 shoves of sand. I notices the mortar was a lot more sticky. If i picked up some in my hand it would stick to my fingers if i tried to roll it into a ball. Now with the type m it wouldn't stick to my fingers. Is my main issue just the cement i am using or??
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Old 09-06-2014, 06:01 PM   #22
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


I brush on weld o bond to the backs of my bluestone and use either N with a scoop of porti in it or S.

Type M is mostly portland I believe we used it for laying block down south other then that never have touched it again.
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Old 09-06-2014, 06:33 PM   #23
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


Type M is about as workable as maple syrup. Engineers/architects should take some masonry specific classes.
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Old 09-06-2014, 06:44 PM   #24
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


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Originally Posted by fjn View Post



These guys make some good stuff for the same application.

http://www.laticrete.com/architects/...s_screeds.aspx
laticrete is by me here in Naugatuck Ct....good stuff been around since the 70's....
other than that I too use concrete sand usually lay ywice to check the seat especially with the rough bottom stuff.....always sprinle dry portland on the second setting.
trick is just enough water ie dryish mix wet the top with a brush sprinkle and they bond great.....if a water line developes bet the stone they come loose same as with portland mud job .

the expansion from heat is another concern which nothing but extra thick stone and epoxy will fight.....ie lay granite. or do dry and sleep tight.
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Old 09-06-2014, 06:52 PM   #25
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


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Bluestone seems to be so inconsistent and unreliable. Whether it starts peeling apart or has stains. I dunno just seems there are a lots of phone calls I get which lead to fixing or ripping apart a bluestone project



I can definitely relate to what you said. Not sure of all the states "bluestone comes from however,the products sold here range from a pale green blue to a extremely dark, rich gunmetal blue that is close to black.

That blue / black stone is the stuff that I feel has the best durability.Some guys say it comes from up state New York. Does anyone have thoughts / ideas regarding this ?
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Old 09-06-2014, 06:54 PM   #26
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


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Type M is about as workable as maple syrup. Engineers/architects should take some masonry specific classes.
yep portland....mason sand = separates....
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Old 09-06-2014, 07:29 PM   #27
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


So I have a pallet of type M on site. Can I mix half of a bag of type m with half a bag of type n to get something close to type s?
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Old 09-06-2014, 07:38 PM   #28
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


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So I have a pallet of type M on site. Can I mix half of a bag of type m with half a bag of type n to get something close to type s?
Just add more sand to the type M masonry cement. That will get you a type S
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Old 09-06-2014, 08:03 PM   #29
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


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Just add more sand to the type M masonry cement. That will get you a type S
How many shovels would you mix to a bag of type m? Should i still add lime?
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Old 09-06-2014, 08:30 PM   #30
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


You are talking masonry cement right?
My quick calculations say 2 shovels.
Type M is about .19 shovels per pound
Type S is about .22 shovels per pound
No lime needed
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Old 09-07-2014, 02:08 PM   #31
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


The m has more Portland then s and n is 50 50. I would add a quarter bag of lime and enough sand till it feels like decent mud.
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Old 09-13-2014, 01:38 PM   #32
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


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Originally Posted by ruskent View Post
So I have a pallet of type M on site. Can I mix half of a bag of type m with half a bag of type n to get something close to type s?
Yes..you could even throw in 2/3 of a bag of type N if you wanted, or you could add some mortar mate which would help with bond if you just add more sand it will have the right compressive strength but won't be as sticky
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Old 06-22-2016, 02:59 PM   #33
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


OK guys...old thread but I really cant see a clear answer to the question as to what we should use.


if anyone can help will be great. We normally do pavers on crushed stone with sand and just awarded a 6000 sq ft job 'wet set'
with 12X18" bluestone, abut 1" thick and the finished height needs to be
matching with another section already laid down at about 3.5" finished height, so a 2.5" to 3" thick bed of...

What... portland?

Do we need a bonding agent on the back of each tile?

This is for a high traffic courtyard in a NYC public park in the pavilion type area.
We need to order materials asap. Like today or tomorrow morning.


Thanks!
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Old 06-22-2016, 04:07 PM   #34
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


As to bonding agent, you absolutely need something. Thinset, pure portland, weldobond will all work if you know how to use them. As far as method and mortar mix for setting, you should have known this before you bid the job. I would get someone in who does!!!
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Old 06-22-2016, 04:11 PM   #35
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


Yeah thats a mess. Ive done that on a pool due to the huge pitch the concrete guys put on the crete.

I regretted not re-pouring it with portland the 2" and it would have still been a 1" bed joint. Not even sure if 2" of portland is ok to do or not. I was struggling like a 17 year old trying to pop off a bra.

But yeah, set up a pasting station on saw horses, make sure you lay our your pattern on grid paper so the tenders can pre paste the backs ahead of you, otherwise, well , it will fricken suck the life out of you.

Grid paper, 1 square is 6", just lay it out, takes an hour and saves you days.
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Old 06-22-2016, 04:14 PM   #36
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


Your going to mix the mud stiffer and stiffer to prop up the stones and that is a mistake. Bluestone need to be set in something that has moisture.
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Old 06-22-2016, 04:16 PM   #37
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


So this is what I would do, bang out the layout on grid paper and place an order for thermaled top 2" pattern stock. Unless they asked for cleff.
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Old 06-22-2016, 04:17 PM   #38
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


1" stone on a patio in mud is kaka
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Old 06-22-2016, 04:19 PM   #39
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


You could just ship my crew up from the South. We'd do the job in 3-4 weeks, but it'd be expensive.
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Old 06-22-2016, 04:25 PM   #40
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Re: Right Mud Mixture For Wet Laid Blue Stone


I will take a stab at your question. First off,I get it that you need to match existing heights.My question,what is this 2.5-3" issue all about ? What is governing that height,existing concrete slab,soil etc.? Reason for asking,IMHO,I feel 2.5"-3" of any mortar is excessive.


The key to any flagging success hinges on several factors. They are base,drainage,substrate,joint size,and ability of stone to bond with the mortar. With that said, a type S mortar with a lime content a bit to the lower side of the scale (yes there is a range for all types) should do the trick both as a setting bed and joints between the stones.


There is a caveat to that though.You can enhance the bond with a slurry or score the backside with an angle grinder. However,the closest thing to a sure fire belt and suspenders approach is to sandblast the backsides with a course aggregate ,a mechanical bush hammer could be used but it is slower and you will break a bunch of stones trying.


After the back is roughed,either apply a portland slurry or a proprietary bonding agent (even to edges of joints) Keep joints to 1/2"or less,do not concave joint but flat join them.Doing so will not leave "troughs" to hold water.

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