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Out Door Fireplace

 
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Old 12-26-2008, 01:37 PM   #21
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


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Originally Posted by Hearthman View Post
There is a task force working on the first ever national std. for outdoor decorative fireplaces. Go to the Hearth, Patio, and BBQ Assn.'s website and check in the Gov't Affairs section.
HTH,
Hearthman


Great , more BS gov't regulations/mandates just like the crappy ethanol farce. I wish nothing but the worst for the task force
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Old 12-26-2008, 05:46 PM   #22
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


A little stone, a little mortar and a lot of skill and you could make that look good. All fireplaces look like crap on the inside, Just as long as it's functional.
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:27 PM   #23
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


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I just wanted to get some opinions and I got the hint, like one of those bricks being thrown at me.

ANDREW - DUCK!!!!



Too late.


The fireplace should suffer the same fate that the house that was built around it did
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Old 12-26-2008, 09:45 PM   #24
 
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


Brickie, can you explain your comments? Are you saying you are against codes and standards?
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Old 12-26-2008, 09:58 PM   #25
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


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Brickie, can you explain your comments? Are you saying you are against codes and standards?
Hearthman

I'm against the scams the HPBA & it's front groups are pushing like the WSC, CSA etc.,
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Old 12-26-2008, 10:06 PM   #26
 
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


Buddy, sounds like you have a real chip on your shoulder. What they are trying to do is develop standards so people don't make bad choices and have bad results. Right now, with everyone going freestyle with no oversight, we are seeing fires and personal injuries because of the lack of stds. I guess you are saying that you like living in the past seeing people hurt and property damaged.

Let me ask you this Brickie: Do you even own a set of current code books?

You attitude here does not reflect well on your profession.
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Old 12-26-2008, 10:31 PM   #27
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


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Originally Posted by Hearthman View Post
Buddy, sounds like you have a real chip on your shoulder. What they are trying to do is develop standards so people don't make bad choices and have bad results. Right now, with everyone going freestyle with no oversight, we are seeing fires and personal injuries because of the lack of stds. I guess you are saying that you like living in the past seeing people hurt and property damaged.

Let me ask you this Brickie: Do you even own a set of current code books?

You attitude here does not reflect well on your profession.
Hearthman
Ok, because he could care less about your association, he doesn't care about codes? That is not what he said. FYI - just because someone has a set of code books, doesn't mean they build to code which should be the main item.

Maybe this will be clearer for you - I could care less about your association, the Interior Designers association, etc.... trying to push other "Standards" through the courts, legislatures, etc... There needs to be 1 set of codes that apply, not a patchwork of rules, regs, codes, etc... More regulation leads to increased costs for all concerned. If you want a code or standard changed, go through the ICC, that at least has some reasonably informed individuals.
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Old 12-26-2008, 10:37 PM   #28
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


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Buddy, sounds like you have a real chip on your shoulder. What they are trying to do is develop standards so people don't make bad choices and have bad results

What you're trying to do is BS people into buying your (HPBA approved of course) buddies stoves, etc., Why are you denying something that is contained in your groups info?
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Old 12-26-2008, 11:36 PM   #29
 
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


SLS, he is the one mocking codes and stds. The HPBA is working voluntarily with UL, ANSI, ASTM, the NFPA and the ICC on this new std. because there is NOTHING in the codes to tell you where and how to build firepits and outdoor fireplaces. We ARE going through proper channels so this will be eventually recognized in the IRC. It is not more BS to make more red tape. It is to address very real concerns born out of very real losses. What would you rather---that outdoor fireplaces and fireplaces be banned altogether? That's where this is heading so in order to preserve the right to build these installations (read: job security for me and you), we are working with the codes and stds. people. You are mocking the very people trying to protect work for you. The 'more regulation' you refer to actually lowers your cost by keeping you out of trouble as long as you play by the rules. SLS, professionals own a set of the codes because the code is law-not some voluntary std. you follow at your whim. If you had a clue, you would know how much the HPBA has done to harmonize and standardize codes.

Brickie, what BS course are you referring to? I said nothing about any training or courses. Are you seeing spies hiding in the bushes? You still did not answer my question about owning a set of current codes so I take it you don't. Does that mean you build masonry structures without regard to the building codes, which are law?

Brickie, I'm not denying anything--you are. Why do you feel so threatened by someone trying to help you? Is there guilt over how you have been building masonry fireplaces that are not code compliant?

Have a nice day,
Hearthman
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Old 12-27-2008, 12:30 AM   #30
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


Quote:
SLS, he is the one mocking codes and stds.
No, just the HPBA scam which is similar to the ethanol scam


Quote:
The HPBA is working voluntarily with UL, ANSI, ASTM, the NFPA and the ICC on this new std.

You conveniently forgot your money boys aka the rest of your cartel/special interest group:


To make it easy for consumers to changeout, NCHPBA and HPBA recruited 124 retailers and 57 manufacturers to participate in the program( Hey guys, we have this idea on how to get the gov't to mandate the use our products & we'll all make a killing)


The centerpiece of the program was a diversified public awareness campaign that educated citizens about the need to reduce excessive wood smoke, and encouraged them to change out old, dirty wood stoves and fireplace inserts

During the three-month campaign, resulted in 1,287 reported changeouts



Quote:
You are mocking the very people trying to protect work for you

Nope, I'm not a manufacturer or retailer of any of YOUR products. The last sentence of the first paragraph sheds more light:


http://www.hpba.org/fileadmin/Govt._..._EXPO_2008.pdf
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Old 12-27-2008, 01:06 AM   #31
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


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You still did not answer my question about owning a set of current codes so I take it you don't
Really Now??? Wrong again.....


http://www.rumford.com/code/code.html
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Old 12-27-2008, 12:31 PM   #32
 
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


Brickie, you have some serious issues, dude.

First of all, the HPBA promotes cleaner burning of solid fuel. That's because we want to be better corporate citizens of our world and that, yes, the EPA and local air regulators are trying to ban wood burning, including open hearth masonry fireplaces. I don't see how you make a connection that the activities of the HPBA are in any way dishonorable or negative. They help the environment, they protect jobs including brick masons, and they make homes safer through education and inspection by qualified professionals. Now, what part of that do you have a problem with and what in the world does any of this have to do with ethanol? Have you been drinking ethanol? Sounds like it.

That's great you found Jim Buckley's website. He is a good guy and a terrific resource. Now, could you educate your breatheren about the codes and standards?

You seem to resent the authority of codes and standards as if they were a joke or unnecessary burden. Based upon what? That someone has the legal right to look over your shouldler to ensure you construct a combustion appliance properly that is intended to contain fire in a home? Or are you asserting your arrognance that you know it all and the public should trust you because you are a swell guy who grew up with a trowel in his hand?

Let me share a little story: I grew up in construction and was a licensed builder. We used the "best" and "most respected" brick mason in town, including for our fireplaces. One night, my volunteer fire company responded to a fire at one of my neighbor's houses. The mason had failed to grout the profile gap btw the fireplace proper and the decorative face resulting in a "second chimney effect" that channeled heat to the ceiling where combustibles ignited. It was very embarrassing but luckily no one was hurt. I went back to a bunch of our houses and found 100% had this gap! We made the mason grout them all. The point is, even with codes, the building inspector cannot camp out on site watching you to ensure every cored brick cell is push filled, the tiles are bedded in the proper mortar per ASTM C 1283, and so on. The code is there for you to comply with. In the event of a loss, you will be held to that standard of care.

I am biting my tongue here in the full knowledge of just how poorly masonry chimneys and fireplaces are built in America. I cannot find one professional in the hearth industry who has every found a single masonry fireplace/ chimney built 100% to the applicable codes. Is that a record you are proud of? Or that there is an entire industry built around repairing all the defects masons build into their chimneys?

I don't want to bash----I want to educate but with pig headed people who take any positive attempt to educate and improve things and bash it or obfuscate the issues, no wonder things are as they are. I can only hope there are more masons out there that do not share your nasty, defeatist attitude.
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Old 12-27-2008, 04:11 PM   #33
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


"I cannot find one professional in the hearth industry who has every found a single masonry fireplace/ chimney built 100% to the applicable codes."

You are not looking very hard.

There is no technical difference between and interior or exterior fireplace, nor is there a solid code that allows for all of the variations that exist in building a fireplace. The standards for masonry fireplaces have been established and refined over thousands of years.

The main issues I see in the field are not with the workmanship of the fireplaces themselves, it is with the placement and expectations of what a fireplace is capable of. The most common issues are wrongly sized openings, double sided fireplaces, and poorly engineered stacks.
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Old 12-27-2008, 04:13 PM   #34
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


Hearthman,
Some of us are code wise builders and proud of it too!!! There are FIVE towns I work in that the buiding inspectors don't even show for a throat inspection if my name is there on the permit. You may be right about what's good or bad for the air but, I build 'em right and pretty too!

D.
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Old 12-27-2008, 10:15 PM   #35
 
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


I agree there are some great, very conscientitious masons out there and there are some that are a problem..........just as there are with any trade or endeavor. However, the hearth industry has experienced a widespread problem with masons who build freestyle irregardless of codes and inspectors who have no clue what they are looking at. It makes us all look bad.

The code does not distinguish btw an indoor and outdoor Fp. So, what is the problem? Well, for a freestanding unit well away from and combustible construction, you may be tempted to cut corners such as shown in the OPs photo. Note the CMU block on its side with cells ungrouted as one example. Now, what if this same Fp was built against the side of the house? You see, wind can create some very hot zones in fireplaces that were not anticipated in the design requirements in the codes. You don't have wind inside a house but you do outdoors. You can also recirculate smoke and carbon monoxide back into a home from an outdoor Fp too close. We have seen firepits located 6ft from the house where the wind blew the flame over and burned people. These are just some of the issues with outdoor Fps that are not addressed either by the IRC or NFPA 211 that the task force is working on.

Tscarborough, the codes do not cover every possible iteration of fireplaces. Therefore, if you propose to build something outside of the code, you must submit plans and specs to the building dept to get approval and hopefully have it inspected. Otherwise, you cannot build whatever you feel like. That's why we have codes.

Raskol, that's good you have a close working relationship with your building dept.

I think as time goes on, you will see jurisdictions requiring some sort of certification in order to build masonry fireplaces and chimneys. It's either that or they get outlawed altogether. They're almost to that point in Calif.

Peace,
Hearthman
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Old 12-27-2008, 10:20 PM   #36
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


California is not a barometer for the rest of the US, much less the world.
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Old 12-27-2008, 11:32 PM   #37
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


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That's because we want to be better corporate citizens of our world and that, yes, the EPA and local air regulators are trying to ban wood burning, including open hearth masonry fireplaces
You conveniently forgot to mention that you & your group are leading the charge


Quote:
I don't see how you make a connection that the activities of the HPBA are in any way dishonorable or negative
After reading all the crap on th HPBA site and the latest drivel from a BOD HPBA member it's quite clear


Quote:
You seem to resent the authority of codes and standards as if they were a joke or unnecessary burden

As I previously posted, I'm against the scams the HPBA & it's front groups are pushing like the WSC, CSA etc.,



Quote:
Or are you asserting your arrognance that you know it all and the public should trust you

Hmmm... that definitely sums you up quite well
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Old 12-28-2008, 12:21 AM   #38
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


Looking over the website, I can only find mention of zero clearance fireplaces and "Hearth Products", whatever the F that is.
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Old 12-28-2008, 10:21 AM   #39
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


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Originally Posted by Hearthman View Post

I think as time goes on, you will see jurisdictions requiring some sort of certification in order to build masonry fireplaces and chimneys. It's either that or they get outlawed altogether. They're almost to that point in Calif.

Peace,
Hearthman
How so?


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California is not a barometer for the rest of the US, much less the world.
First in recession.
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Old 12-28-2008, 12:22 PM   #40
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Re: Out Door Fireplace


tscar is probably more current, but when I was building fireplaces in Austin, there was no inspection what-so-ever by the building department. Back in the early 80's, I was building a lot of traditional rumfords for an architect, and had a building inspector red tag a job because he"hadn't ever seen anything like that before" (he was there for the electrical inspection). Architect and I had a meeting with the then head of the building department that resulted in rumford fireplaces being added to the local code. Last fireplace I built was in 2001--still no inspection at all.

I'm with brickie in that there are too many self serving groups pushing for legislation that is economically beneficial for them but not the public at large. We definitely need less government restrictions, not more. And, Mr. hearthman, please don't even get us started in what a scam all this new "good for the environment" legislation is. Just another step in the new world order--coming soon to a theater near you.

JVC

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