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6stringmason 03-24-2015 07:02 PM

Need a favor....
 
I sent a guy to finish the porch area including columns, under the door, and along both sides of the door. There are numerous errors that I've told him more than a few times to watch for and correct. Would some of you be so kind as to critique this so I can let him know it's not just me being picky?
http://imgur.com/pfmEgBt

NYCB 03-24-2015 07:14 PM

The columns look very amateurish, the joints are too wide and some of the stones look forced.

Under the door also looks forced and the stones are sitting level. To the right side of the door near the window it's pretty rough.

Not to come off prickish...but I get really picky too. I had my dad helping me last year on a veneer stone project and I kept having to take off some of his rocks...he was getting mad at me for awhile but after about a week he had it pretty much down to the way I want it done.

Inner10 03-24-2015 07:19 PM

Doesn't look bad, but it sure doesn't look like Bytor did it.

griz 03-24-2015 07:33 PM

Mortar joints, especially the verticals look too wide.

The front column on the right, the mortar joints look acceptable, but the stones just don't seem right.

I just don't get the feeling that a pro mason, who cares about his work, did this one.

fjn 03-24-2015 07:33 PM

There is absolutely no consistency in the coursing for the door wall and the wall to the left of the door. Also,unless it is an optical illusion,the left side of the right hand column looks like an hour glass + it looks like it has a belly in it.

6stringmason 03-24-2015 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner10 (Post 2720777)
Doesn't look bad, but it sure doesn't look like Bytor did it.

HA! I dont know if I'd have the patience or get someone with a fat enough wallet to have the time for crisp corners like that!

heavyc 03-24-2015 07:40 PM

Man that unsupported roof is pretty scary to me? Can't believe there isn't a temporary kicker in there?

FrankSmith 03-24-2015 07:44 PM

I like that you are trying to get improvement. That being said it doesn't look to bad considering there is vinyl siding on the rest of the house.

6stringmason 03-24-2015 07:54 PM

Thanks guys. I appreciate the feed back. It natural thin veneer, and they werent the easiest to work with and many of them were the same size. Like I said, I've made many attempts to tell him how to correct his work and how I want it done, but I think he thinks Im being picky. I know these arent things the average person would pick out, or even a lot of guys in different trades, but that doesnt really matter to me. I want it done the way its supposed to be done, so other masons who see our work say, "these guys know what they're doing."

FJN, can you explain the consistency in coursing?

My main problems I had with it was the stones the same size stacked on top of each other, the three high joint on bottom right of door, and some of the intersections in the wall. If I were there I would have made him tear it down like I have in the past, and put different stone in. I gave him the opportunity to try and prove himself, but I think hes still got a little learning to do. Hes a hard worker, just needs a little more experience and to open his ears.

dom-mas 03-24-2015 07:57 PM

I don't know.... to me it looks like the rest of the stone on the house. Don't know why there isn't a sill under the door and yes the pillars aren't perfectly plumb but it's thinstone so you can't really do much about that. Many of the heads are big on that skirt wall as well, also a few stacked joints on both areas. There does seem to be more coursing in that area beside the door though. It's a chunky, clunky rustic stone, I don't see much difference between either area

fjn 03-24-2015 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6stringmason (Post 2721281)

FJN, can you explain the consistency in coursing?




Look at the two walls where they intersect at the very inside corner. Nothing lines up with nothing. It looks like stone wallpaper to me.

JBM 03-24-2015 08:10 PM

25 Attachment(s)
Before I answer I have a question.

Did the customer like it, and did you get paid?

JBM 03-24-2015 08:14 PM

25 Attachment(s)
All seriousness stone work is one of those things. You have to know when or what jobs you can leave the guys alone on it.

On the front or entrance somewhere, thats iffy if your guy is iffy.

JBM 03-24-2015 08:16 PM

25 Attachment(s)
When the mud drys out....when you go by at about 45.....it will look great.

6stringmason 03-24-2015 08:43 PM

Yes the homeowner loves it.

And just to be fair on the joint size, I did a few sample panels for the homeowner because she was on the fence about tight joints vs whats in the pic, vs full joints like you'd see on old foundations, and this is what they wanted.

My main problems were the tall head joints, stacked stones, and intersections. I appreciate all the feedback. I'll let him read this to see its not just me being picky, and hopefully he'll take it as a challenge to better himself and realize its little things that can really make a job go from average to outstanding, even if most people dont realize the difference. I cant say enough that hes a hard worker, fixes things without being asked on his own time(though I tell him to add the hours but he wont), and doesnt complain about weather, long days, or much of anything.

JBM 03-24-2015 08:48 PM

25 Attachment(s)
I dont think its alarming to have a joint go 2 rocks tall. 3 small rocks ill let slide as well, and try to stagger it a bunch. Zipper joints are chit and should be avoided, less then (depending on scale of the rock) 3inches.

At some point though you have to hit your sq.ft. number and you have to do that with what and who you have. That number is your retirement, your mortgage and your truck payment. Hit that number or go backwards. Or price it to go slower and hold peoples hand.

Nick520 03-24-2015 08:55 PM

Lota of long horizontal joint lines and some inconsistent head joints. Triple stacked stones to the bottom right like you had said. Colums don't look super plumb but that's always the fun part of thinstone/cultured.

In all fairness it is clean and isn't mortar stained. Anybody who isn't a mason prob wouldn't have any concern that most of us have said

Eddie's Masonry 03-24-2015 09:16 PM

Well if he didn't do a good job if you paid him you should have him go back they and correct his mistakes. http://www.eddiemasonry.com/

superseal 03-24-2015 09:50 PM

I still think the front door is worse than the stonework :blink:

heavyc 03-24-2015 09:51 PM

Doing sample panels for home owners?
Wow SOP for our commercial and military jobs, first residential job I've ever heard of providing sample panel.
Sounds like a tough customer. If she bought it the cutomer is ALWAYS right. Critique his workmanship flaws and keep on improving the final product to your liking.

heavyc 03-24-2015 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superseal (Post 2722369)
I still think the front door is worse than the stonework :blink:

Agreed I figured it's a temporary, until the ordered one arrives? Looks like interior door. But I'm just a Mason.

fjn 03-25-2015 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6stringmason (Post 2721849)
I cant say enough that hes a hard worker, fixes things without being asked on his own time(though I tell him to add the hours but he wont), and doesnt complain about weather, long days, or much of anything.




Then hold on to him with both hands. He has many positive attributes. Stick with him and work along side him,you can correct the skill deficiencies because he seems like a good guy and willing to learn. The bad attitudes are the aspects of a worker that are most difficult to correct. This guy is worth your effort IMHO.

Texas Wax 03-25-2015 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavyc (Post 2722409)
Agreed I figured it's a temporary, until the ordered one arrives? Looks like interior door. But I'm just a Mason.

Dunnage (sic?) door.
Was quite common in southern WI, in 6 strings neck of the woods maybe still. Boys in da nort woods hang on to the 'older' ways longer LOL

dakzaag 03-25-2015 10:30 PM

6,
First off, yes you can sell that wall. I applaud you for not settling for ok and pushing your guy to be a great mason. Way too many guys out there who are just happy to get the check and move on.

The pillar on the right gets pretty wonky, but it might be the camera angle. Zipper joints every where, but the stone is small, so that is tough to control. My biggest beef is the coursing of random stone. Bed joints need to be broken up just as much as head joints on random stuff and this job is more like brick than stone.

It's kinda funny how in a tight area we think there is no way to screw it up and then when we get done, it looks like there is no way to do it right.:eek:

Three rules on stone work will cure most of the problems we see everywhere.
1. Keep it level and plumb (I like to use a string or snap a line to help keep odd shape stuff in line, admittedly the adhered stuff follows the wall so not much you can do there.)
2. Stack one on top of two. (Some ledge stone can be stacked once in a while, but don't make a habit of it.)
3. Break up your head and bed joints.

If you follow these rules, you just end up with nice looking work.:thumbup:

dakzaag 03-25-2015 10:38 PM

Did you run short on stone? Seems like a lot of small stuff ended up around the door, where are the bigger pieces.

If the guy left stone in the box, but was working too hard to use up every last piece, that's a problem. Conversely, if you were down to the last box and had to use every piece on the ground then whoever ordered the material needs to be talked to.

There could be more to this picture than meets the eye...:whistling

heavyc 03-26-2015 06:05 AM

So how did your employee take the criticism?
Exactly how long has he worked for/with you?
I'm assuming that was not his first solo attempt. The biggest problem/issue with our trade is no younger generations are interested in working hard for their money.
At least in heavy commercial side of masonry. We are contracted to only work journey men level and above. No apprentice level work can be performed.

Fouthgeneration 03-27-2015 12:05 AM

Lots of good advice, my 2 cents is that you and him didn't pick a bond and stick to it, some panels the bed joints travel through, others they quit ~3 feet, Random coursed ashlar vs coursed ashlar maybe? stack joint in inside corner brakes illusion of full bed stones... the manufacturing/sawing of the NVT favors smaller pieces then full bed. The stone supplied doesn't have the correct ratio of heights IMO.

Keep any thin bed products off the the 3-D piers and arches, it would be cheaper to get full bed product to use on the 3-D fixtures.

Some have an eye for stone work some don't, the semi- coursed bonds IMO are the toughest to keep consistent, most of my jobs I can tell where I started, the rest blurs together.

Diamond D. 03-27-2015 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superseal (Post 2722369)
I still think the front door is worse than the stonework :blink:



Quote:

Originally Posted by dom-mas (Post 2721321)
Don't know why there isn't a sill under the door...


Not on your helper, but on a side design note, if I may...

Regardless of whether the door slab is being changed out, a piece of bluestone, (or any type of kick board, for that matter), would have gone a long way to anchor the entry door assembly and even, hopefully eliminate the stackers on the right.(Ok, I guess that would be your helper)

On a personal note, I have absolutely no tolerance for cross intersections under any circumstances, let alone 3 on top of each other, that includes flat work, but then, that's just me.

D.

6stringmason 03-28-2015 02:24 PM

I agree on the intersections Diamond. When Im there if they put them I make them pull stone off and re do it.

They didnt send a very good selection of stone to begin with in my opinion. Not many jumpers at all, and many of the pieces were the 3 to 4 inch tall and 8-10" long. Not great to work with.

And yes, they always hang old doors on up here until the house is almost done. Save on knicks and dings when people are hauling material in.

dbrons 03-29-2015 09:36 AM

Interesting discussion. Thanks for posting 6string. One thing I'll say first off is I build sample panels very frequently for homeowners or designers. I do it gladly because otherwise you risk having to tear down a job you've started when they decide they don't like it after all.

I would say I agree with the sentiment that this house is built of somewhat modest materials and so I think the work looks OK. I've had to work with very blocky, similar sized pieces which can lead to an issue when you try to break up the horizontal. Of course alternating the stones properly at the inside corner is very simple with these stones so that certainly should have been done.

One thing I've done with this sort of material is to get a different stone which matches but is much larger - I've used random sized pieces of flagstone - and stick one on the wall every so often then just cut your other stones into it. Makes a more interesting look.

Personally I don't like the edge of veneer stones showing on the left wall - maybe that should have stayed low wainscot height there. And the one thing I would probably make the guy take out is the notched stone at the very bottom left of the right side column. I don't like notched or pistol stones :) I don't like triangles either.

Dave

dakzaag 03-29-2015 04:17 PM

I had a customer who loved pistol stones. (never called them that, but it is the perfect description.) The more of them she seen the happier she was.
I kicked myself for a week for putting the first one in.

kingcarpenter 04-01-2015 10:31 PM

need a favor
 
Door is a construction door. Why would anybody not put in a temporary door to be abused until house is much further along.

S.U.M 04-03-2015 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingcarpenter (Post 2769793)
Door is a construction door. Why would anybody not put in a temporary door to be abused until house is much further along.


You would be surprised Sir, currently on a job where we built the brick veneer on the side and front of the
house, the $9000 door and frame was installed before we got there.
The brick is finished but still gotta do the stone. I asked for it to be covered but the g.c never did, got that request in an email.

CJKarl 04-06-2015 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakzaag (Post 2751186)
I had a customer who loved pistol stones. (never called them that, but it is the perfect description.) The more of them she seen the happier she was.
I kicked myself for a week for putting the first one in.

Ha, we call them "dog legs" or "pork chops" to be avoided at all costs.


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