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-   -   Bay window leaks (they're all supposed to right?) (https://www.contractortalk.com/f48/bay-window-leaks-theyre-all-supposed-right-145549/)

lilbuzzy 02-21-2014 02:01 PM

Bay window leaks (they're all supposed to right?)
 
I am seeking information. I have a bay window with brick and copper. It is leaking. I was not around to see what type of flashing and or method was used when the house was built. My question to the masons: Can one retro flash a bay window without starting from scratch? And how and where would you begin this process? It looks fancy and professional but it leaks like 70's Harley. From my internet research I have seen how it needs to be done, but my problem lies in that its a done house. So what and how do you do the reflash? I know you guys want pics right now, but I don't have access at the moment. It is a curved copper top (at the hip). Does that make it more difficult to fix.

Thanks in advance

Richie

greg24k 02-21-2014 03:42 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by lilbuzzy (Post 1961167)
I am seeking information. I have a bay window with brick and copper. It is leaking. I was not around to see what type of flashing and or method was used when the house was built. My question to the masons: Can one retro flash a bay window without starting from scratch? And how and where would you begin this process? It looks fancy and professional but it leaks like 70's Harley. From my internet research I have seen how it needs to be done, but my problem lies in that its a done house. So what and how do you do the reflash? I know you guys want pics right now, but I don't have access at the moment. It is a curved copper top (at the hip). Does that make it more difficult to fix.

Thanks in advance

Richie

Cut the brick joint about 2-3 courses up from the roof line and along the sides, bend and install flashing and seal it along the joint.
Something like this

lilbuzzy 02-21-2014 04:58 PM

Thanks for the advice but I think that's the way it's flashed. I feel it needs more from the structure to the outside of the veneer. attached are some pics. The curve is why I think all the contractors I've talked with want to calk and seal the brick and it ride. I'm tired of riding! I just want it fixed.
http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/r...ps4e669261.jpg
http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/r...psa2ef63ad.jpg
http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/r...pscdecd7fd.jpg
http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/r...psba57cb52.jpg

Roofcheck 02-21-2014 06:07 PM

I think it's obvious to where your leak is. At least one lock should have been flattened and covered by the next seam- and soldered.

Step 1 pull that silicone out and see what's under it.

Roofcheck 02-21-2014 06:09 PM

A new "to wall" flashing tucked under that wall flashing- not on the rake wall just across the top, using copper it will age nicely.

JBM 02-21-2014 06:36 PM

25 Attachment(s)
Take all of that off and re do it. Its a roofing problem not a masonry problem

jlsconstruction 02-21-2014 06:42 PM

Nice house for a blaster!

Roofcheck 02-21-2014 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBM (Post 1961302)
Take all of that off and re do it. Its a roofing problem not a masonry problem

I think it's only missing one piece the rest isn't bad.

lilbuzzy 02-21-2014 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roofcheck (Post 1961331)
I think it's only missing one piece the rest isn't bad.

so it needs to be cut in the brick and lap from under the decorative piece?

lilbuzzy 02-21-2014 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlsconstruction (Post 1961309)
Nice house for a blaster!

thanks. try jack of many master of none. two incomes no kids has advantages. i guess i do a bit of everything.

http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/r...CN0949_221.jpg

Builder Butch 02-21-2014 10:22 PM

Its hard to be sure from pics but we build a lot of copper hoods like yours here also. They all leak and here are 2 solutions that seems to fix most. And trust me I've stopped hundreds from leaking.
1. The window above might need a flashing pan install. Wood windows are difficult to keep water out. The water usually runs down the back side of the brick down to the ground. The bay has interrupted the weep system and is hitting your ceiling most likely. A window pan between the sill and the rough opening will catch the weep water and direct it outside the wall.

2. Seal the brick with Soloxane PD. Brick is like a sponge and will absorb the water and weep down the backside of the brick again interrupted by the bay and likely ending up on your ceiling.

Anytime brick does not terminate to the ground it is almost always the brick. Since the flashing is on the face of the brick the water soaks through the brick and infiltrate the wall assembly.i

lilbuzzy 02-21-2014 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Builder Butch (Post 1961498)
Its hard to be sure from pics but we build a lot of copper hoods like yours here also. They all leak and here are 2 solutions that seems to fix most. And trust me I've stopped hundreds from leaking.
1. The window above might need a flashing pan install. Wood windows are difficult to keep water out. The water usually runs down the back side of the brick down to the ground. The bay has interrupted the weep system and is hitting your ceiling most likely. A window pan between the sill and the rough opening will catch the weep water and direct it outside the wall.

2. Seal the brick with Soloxane PD. Brick is like a sponge and will absorb the water and weep down the backside of the brick again interrupted by the bay and likely ending up on your ceiling.\
Anytime brick does not terminate to the ground it is almost always the brick. Since the flashing is on the face of the brick the water soaks through the brick and infiltrate the wall assembly.i

I've been told the same thing. I think it needs something like you described. Do you have to unbrick it to install that pan from the structure to the outside or can you slide it under?

stuart45 02-22-2014 11:07 AM

I would say that Builder Butch is correct. We call them cavity trays.
http://www.manthorpe.co.uk/Building/...ity-Trays.html

Without them wind driven rain pours inside.
You have to remove some brickwork to retro fit them.

dom-mas 02-22-2014 01:21 PM

My question is how is the opening spanned? I'm guessing with an angle iron...yet I see no evidence of weepers above the roof flashing. There needs to be wall flashing that goes onto the angle along with weeps so that water can drain onto the roof (or at least so fresh air can get in and dry things out). If the lintel is within a roof line, the flashing should stick out the masonry above where the roof flashing is anticipated and the roof flashing tuck in under it

Don't seal the brick. Masonry needs to breathe. Water will win, it gets in through very tiny cracks, the masonry needs to be able to let this water out as vapour

Builder Butch 02-22-2014 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilbuzzy (Post 1961533)
I've been told the same thing. I think it needs something like you described. Do you have to unbrick it to install that pan from the structure to the outside or can you slide it under?

You cant really slide the pan in. You will need to remove the window to install it or sometimes I just take the sill out. The pans I use are built out of simple flashing metal and i bend the ends up 1/2" or so and the rear at least 3/8" or as much as I can. Then we fold the corners and use Geocell 2300 to seal the corners. make sure you put a shim under the pan just to give it a little outfall. The upbends create a damn when it fills up. You dont need to remove any brick and the pan depth needs to be from the inside of the sheetrock to a 1/2" onto the brick sill. You could go ahead and cover your Brick sill and use copper. The window is not difficult to remove just remove the brickmould and casing then set the window aside while you install your pan. Takes about a 1/2 day to do it all.

If you want to test my theroy to see if this is your problem. Take the interior stool and apron off. This should allow you to see underneath the sill. Wait till it rains or have someone spray it with a water hose and see if the water is getting in or you will probably see black mold. Start water testing low on the window and spray for at least 3 minutes isolating the one area. it takes a minute for the water to saturate the brick. If no leak
then move upward a few inches at a time until you see it coming in.

I learned this the hard way. Before the crash I built 40 to 50 good size homes a year starting in 1987. I had a few of these leaks especially the copper hoods and tried everything in the world to stop them. I spent thousands of dollars. I'm a Mechanical Engineer by degree and Builder by choice. So I was determined to figure this out. I started reading about water infiltrate management and the correct way to build a wall assembly when a light bulb went off. It was so simple it was just stupid. I had about 12 leaks that were unsolved and one lawsuit on me. I fixed them all. Now everyone calls me to fix the hard leaks. Funny thing is I try to school them on how to build them correctly but the rarely listen. Why I don't know.

Good Luck! If you PM me your email I will try to find some pic of the pan and wall assemby. Im sure I will do another one sometime soon.

Builder Butch 02-22-2014 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dom-mas (Post 1961881)
My question is how is the opening spanned? I'm guessing with an angle iron...yet I see no evidence of weepers above the roof flashing. There needs to be wall flashing that goes onto the angle along with weeps so that water can drain onto the roof (or at least so fresh air can get in and dry things out). If the lintel is within a roof line, the flashing should stick out the masonry above where the roof flashing is anticipated and the roof flashing tuck in under it

Don't seal the brick. Masonry needs to breathe. Water will win, it gets in through very tiny cracks, the masonry needs to be able to let this water out as vapour

Dom-mas you are right about the brick breathing. You need to google Solaxane PD. This stuff is great. It fills the pores of the brick but somehow leaves small voids large enough for air to pass but small enough so water cant get through. Kinda the same concept as Gortex or house wrap. Air molecules are smaller than water molecules. Stuff is expensive but last 15 to 20 years. It will not fill large cracks but will take care of the superficial cracks.

fjn 02-23-2014 05:09 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbHlx4i7XIg

dom-mas 02-23-2014 05:29 PM

Thanks FJN. That was what I was trying to explain, however code here says that masonry can only be supported by steel or other masonry, so what we do is install the angle as it was in the first part of the video, no weepers, build up with block to 4" or so above the bay, including all the angled area, then install the flashing. The roof/wall flashing covers all the block so you never see it. Weepers go in the brick

Builder Butch 02-23-2014 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjn (Post 1962717)

That is exactly how I do them now. Never had a problem, however it is a difficult mess and expensive to retro that on an existing house and was the reason I reccommend my method. Thanks fjn that video makes it easy to understand.

stuart45 02-24-2014 11:11 AM

Here's one about the stepped cavity tray.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYwhGKxAweI


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