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12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?

 
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Old 09-06-2016, 07:31 PM   #21
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


I can't seem to find any specs for adhered natural stone veneer over foam or icf...most manufacturers recommend the insulation on the inside and the substrate to be either sheathed wood frame and lath base, solid masonry or cmu... a little too late for that I know.

I would disagree about not wetting the surface...your bond is always better with a damp to touch/no standing water substrate. Type n is actually better for hot weather and a good all around mix. Type s is stronger and stickier...but, has a tendency to shrink more which can compromise bond, especially if too wet.

Does the weight of the material exceed 15lbs per sq. ft.? is the stone thicker than 1 1/2"? if so, you have problems...I'm still not sold on the plastic backing you're tying into truthfully although I certainly appreciate you're trying to do the right thing.

It's a rather good topic for discussion as some manufacturers recommendations actually counter what many professional experts would agree to. Good luck with your project!

http://www.buildingstoneinstitute.or...ation-2010.pdf
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Old 09-07-2016, 12:17 AM   #22
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


See below for the specs I was sent from the manufacture (Fox Blocks). They also sent me a bunch of fastener stress tests with pictures showing that the screws were failing before the plastic webbing during lateral loading, however the webbing would fail during the screw withdraw test.

The stone Im adhering to the scratch coat are no more then 1 1/2" avg around 1" and under 15lbs per sqft. I did my first day today, using 2 1/2 sand to 1 cement and a table spoon or so of weld bond per 50lb batch. I'm able to back butter the stones and stick them right onto the wall and they hold there own weight in about 10 seconds. From what I read weld bond is a polymer similar to what they put in some modified thin-sets and it seems to have the same smell. On there web page weld bond says under there drywall and plaster section.
"TUCK POINTING: Soak old mortar joints after cleaning in a mixture of 1 part Weldbond® and 5 parts water. Also use this mix as the mixing water for the mortar to ensure a positive bond."

Here is the ICF specs from fox blocks

"
A metal lath is fastened directly to the Fox Blocks formwork to hold

the stone to the wall and withstand the dead weight. The lath is

fastened to plastic furring strips that are located every 8 inches on

center. The 1 ½” wide furring strips are embedded into the EPS foam

plastic panel and are recessed 5/8” from the foam face. They are

marked on the foam panel for location.

Fox Blocks recommends a sharp pointed, corrosion resistant course

thread screw. Typically a #6 to #10 screw approximately 1 ¼” to 1 ½

inches in length is common. A screw with a lath washer is

recommended to ensure that the lath is fully secured. Nails or staples

are not recommended.

Fox Blocks has tested different fasteners for both direct withdraw and also for lateral resistance from the plastic furring

flanges. The direct withdrawal value is used to calculate the fastener spacing to withstand lateral loads from wind

pressure and seismic loads. The lateral resistance test result is used to calculate the fastener schedule to withstand

gravity dead loads such as the self weight of the stone. The 5/8” recess distance was included in the test.

The test results in the Fox Blocks test summary report are all shown as ultimate loads. A safety factor must be applied

"
"
For example, if the design wind and seismic load is 25 psf and the allowable direct withdrawal of the screw is 50

pounds. The fastener spacing should be no greater than 2.0 square feet. Similarly, if the dead weight of the

manufactured stone is 15 psf and the allowable lateral value of the screw is 45

pounds, than the maximum fastener spacing is every 3.0 square feet.

The steps beyond the lath attachment to the Fox ICF wall are the same

according to the manufactured adhered concrete masonry veneer’s

manufacturer’s requirements. Follow the stone veneer manufacturer’s

installation procedures."

Last edited by RedBaronww1; 09-07-2016 at 12:24 AM.
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Old 09-07-2016, 12:57 AM   #23
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JBM View Post
Weld o bond is meant to be pasted on the backs. C21 is what you add to the mud.
Looking more into the weld bond thing I think you might be right however I'm still having troubles finding a straight answer.

Fist they say,
"Weldbond® bonds new cement mixes to old concrete. No hacking, keying or joint raking is required, provided floor was not previously sealed."

Then

"REPAIRS TO CONCRETE, STONE, BRICK AND TILE: Mix 1 part Weldbond®, 1 part water and 5 parts filler (plaster, tile grout, mortar mix or sand mix cement). If repair materials are porous, seal first. When sealed surface is dry apply the adhesive mix best suited to your materials. "

My scratch coat does not have any Weld bond in or on it and is porous.

But then I find on other sites,

WeldBond

CONCRETE AND PLASTER HARDENER - Mix five parts water with one part Weldbond for hardening concrete, plaster, and mortar. BONDING AGENT - For concrete and plaster dilutes with water for extra economy (see product guide).
When mixed with one part water and thickened with filler, makes a versatile bonding adhesive.


So its hard to say, my friend that uses it has done drywall and masonry his whole life and learnt the trick from his father and they swear by it.

That being said because I'm not a chemist it would make more sense to buy something that is actually designed for the job although Im not sure the local hardware store carries any concrete adhesive ad mixes.
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Old 09-07-2016, 10:47 AM   #24
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


This seems to imply that it is ok to use weldbond with out a seal coat, however to get a stronger bond a seal coat is recommended.

"For brick tuck pointing: Mix 1 part Weldbond with 5 parts water; then add mortar. To ensure an even stronger bond, clean old mortar joints and spray or mop on a sealing mixture of the 1 part Weldbond 5 parts water, and proceed with the mortar mix."

Also found this stuff called DECK O WELD that is used as a additive / integral mix however they also say to first apply a primer/bond coat first. I'm guessing by all the specs and description its the exact same stuff as WeldBond just with a different sticker.

https://www.wrmeadows.com/deck-o-wel...mix-admixture/

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Old 09-13-2016, 09:45 PM   #25
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


Just an update on progress,

Have about 1/3 the wall done, no stones have fallen off and I have tested pulling and hammering a test stone with no movement. I have been going with about 1" thick stones on the bottom and now around 1/2-3/4 inch up high. Back buttering them with about 1/2" mortar. I'm not sure how hard it would be to pull one of these stones off with out weldbond but they seem very well bonded. I have been mixing type S mortar for more bight but I might switch to type N for the higher lighter stones to avoid any shrinkage bonding problems.

Total wall is about 700 sqft its going to take me about 2-1/2 weeks at this rate. Havent worked with this kind of stone before and it takes me some time to find the right shapes.




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Old 09-19-2016, 09:47 PM   #26
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


Here is a similar project i did about 4 years ago. Had to go back to the house today so i was able to see how well its holding up.. Applied wire mesh, type n mortar scratch coat....let coat dry. Pre wet scratch coat and apply type n mortar on the loose side with no bonder or anything else added. Held up great even after the horrible winter we had couple years ago




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Old 09-20-2016, 06:19 PM   #27
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


Not to be a wise guy and appear condescending,however,no matter how well the job is executed,and how tight the joints are,laying flagging in this fashion always looks off.

It violates good taste in design. Several authors hold this faux pas up as the example of what not to do. One that comes to mind,Traditional Architectural Patterns by Steve Mouzon. The reason stone laid like this always looks like the fifth wheel on the wagon is because instinctively we know we should be walking on it not leaning against it.


The fact that all these herculean measures need to be taken to insure it stays vertical reinforces that concept.
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Old 09-22-2016, 06:52 PM   #28
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


To reinforce what FJN said above, The two dimensional products, "masonry" wallpaper for me work best with out any corners, thus their use is best left for just one plane applications without any details that immediately give away their lack of depth... Such as Control Joint corners...

Most Stick on jobs take more time making some sort of faux corners to fool one's eye. One thing NVT has over fake stone is the possibility of using full bed units strategically to fool one into thinking the masonry is full bed...

The OPer most likely will end up only a few hours away and couple of thousand $ from using full bed stone veneer price point, which would add value for generations.

If one has a decent credit rating the ultra low interest rates make investing in longer life cycle products much more rewarding then in Ultra-inflationary days of the Carter-Reagan era.

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Old 09-22-2016, 07:10 PM   #29
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fouthgeneration View Post
To reinforce what FJN said above, The two dimensional products, "masonry" wallpaper for me work best with out any corners, thus their use is best left for just one plane applications without any details that immediately give away their lack of depth... Such as Control Joint corner..



Funny you should refer to it as masonry "wallpaper" 'cause that is exactly what Steve Mouzon calls it in the book I mentioned by him.


As far as best used on one plane applications,that at least makes it slightly tolerable. When you have an octagon all the corners make it glaringly obvious it is not "real ".
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Old 09-22-2016, 09:20 PM   #30
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


Nonetheless there is some nice shape work going on there.

There is a million different opinions for every style.
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Old 09-22-2016, 11:56 PM   #31
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


Nice that looks really good Windcity, and reassuring to see you havent had any problems using type N.

As for the discussion on masonry "wallpaper" I fully agree that it doesnt look like the real thing. What I would disagree with is that a full bed stone veneer is. In my mind its just thicker wall paper unless the actual load bearing wall is built with stone. There is true beauty that comes out when the actual wall is made from stone that you can never get with a veneer no matter how thick.

I would consider going with thicker stone but I would defiantly have to go with less surface area per stone. Even at 1" thickness I'm maxed out lifting the bigger ones. I have two more days left then we will go with the grouting. I'm thinking a dark grey with allittle black Ironoxx. Im not sure what I'm going to do for the control joints. I was thinking about putting them in at the corners. There is some big tempature swings as each wall is facing a different aspect. The front wall faces south. What do you guys use for control joints? It would be nice to find something that blends well with dark grey.

I will get some more pics tomorrow.

Also fjn I agree with it looking like it could be a horizontal surface but I would also say the same with wall tile. Personally i find tile and thin stone looks good in both vertical and horizontal applications.
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Old 09-24-2016, 02:45 PM   #32
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


Here are a couple photos from yesterday. Was hoping to finsh but still have a few peices to put in Monday before the groute, wash and seal.

Im woried about doing an acid wash on the rock with rust as it might pull it off has anyone had problems with that?


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Old 09-24-2016, 06:24 PM   #33
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


I don't care what anyone says... That looks good.
Edit: a asked about flashing detail... Then went back and read through the responses. Aka : forum dyslexia, or the more technical, douchevitis.
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Old 09-24-2016, 07:29 PM   #34
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBaronww1 View Post
Here are a couple photos from yesterday. Was hoping to finsh but still have a few peices to put in Monday before the groute, wash and seal.

Im woried about doing an acid wash on the rock with rust as it might pull it off has anyone had problems with that?



You might have an issue losing some of the color washing it. If you are careful filling in the joints you might not need acid washing. Try washing a small test area first to see if you lose any of the color before you go all out. Also consider using sureclean instead of muriatic acid.


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Old 09-25-2016, 06:07 AM   #35
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


I think your work is beautiful! But I do have one question, though. Why wouldn't you joint your work as you go. No grout bags, it stays cleaner, and once you finish laying, everything is done. Cutting your labor time alot.

I never acid wash stone, I have seen times where people wash with acid and lose the color of stone and possibly 'run the rust' down the wall.
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Old 09-25-2016, 02:44 PM   #36
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


Thanks guys, I was thinking about grouting as we went but we had decided to go with adding black Ironoxx to get a darker shade of grey. It sure would have been easyer to do it that way though as I spent some time cleaning out joints that would have been ready to go. Guess I could have added the black ironoxx to the mortar but I was paranoid about bond strength.

One thing I learned though is once the mortar with weld bond additive dries its literately welded onto the rock I cant brush it off or scrape it off with out using water. Having said that I wouldn't use weld bond some where that the rock will be seeing moisture because if it becomes saturated enough it could lose its bond. Luckily I have yet to see a rain drop hit the wall even when windy.

I will have to look into that sureclean and thats a good point to test it on scrap rocks before i bring it to the wall.

I'm still trying to figure out what to do for the control joints. I know allot of projects in town that dont use them and seem to be fine but this is a pretty long wall with high temperature flux due to the aspect changes. I was looking at block-Lok products and thinking about using something like that but I dont think it would look to good on the corners even with a color match unless it was textured with something.

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Old 09-25-2016, 04:26 PM   #37
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBaronww1 View Post
Thanks guys, I was thinking about grouting as we went but we had decided to go with adding black Ironoxx to get a darker shade of grey. It sure would have been easyer to do it that way though as I spent some time cleaning out joints that would have been ready to go. Guess I could have added the black ironoxx to the mortar but I was paranoid about bond strength.

One thing I learned though is once the mortar with weld bond additive dries its literately welded onto the rock I cant brush it off or scrape it off with out using water. Having said that I wouldn't use weld bond some where that the rock will be seeing moisture because if it becomes saturated enough it could lose its bond. Luckily I have yet to see a rain drop hit the wall even when windy.

I will have to look into that sureclean and thats a good point to test it on scrap rocks before i bring it to the wall.

I'm still trying to figure out what to do for the control joints. I know allot of projects in town that dont use them and seem to be fine but this is a pretty long wall with high temperature flux due to the aspect changes. I was looking at block-Lok products and thinking about using something like that but I dont think it would look to good on the corners even with a color match unless it was textured with something.


It's actually called Sure Klean 600...if you want to google a local supplies for you. Doesn't have the crazy burn that acid has. If you are good (neat) with grouting and to keep from washing out the dark color from your mortar you might want to wash the stone first and fill the joints later.

Keep us posted, it's looking good


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Old 09-25-2016, 05:37 PM   #38
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


If you're going to use acid, do so before you point it up if you're using an oxide dye.

I've washed plenty of that flag doing patios and such and have never washed off color or released rust stains...although in the vertical position, mother nature probably will.

I would use a high quality penetrating sealer upon completion such as Siloxane PD.

For what it is...it looks good!
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Old 09-28-2016, 10:12 AM   #39
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBaronww1 View Post





I'm still trying to figure out what to do for the control joints. I know allot of projects in town that dont use them and seem to be fine but this is a pretty long wall with high temperature flux due to the aspect changes. I was looking at block-Lok products and thinking about using something like that but I dont think it would look to good on the corners even with a color match unless it was textured with something.




Backer rod and textured Sika flex caulk.
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Old 09-28-2016, 10:49 AM   #40
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Re: 12ft High 2" Stone (slate/shale) Veneer. Rock Fall Hazard?


You could also broadcast blasting sand into your fresh sealant...two part sealants would be the premium choice in terms of quality.
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