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The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....

 
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Old 04-04-2019, 11:18 PM   #61
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


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Originally Posted by cedarboarder View Post
#1 cold climate like Alberta.they are useless.
...and they're not selling a whole lotta parkas in Honolulu. Right now electric vehicles still work in cold climates, just with less range.
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Originally Posted by cedarboarder View Post
#2 majority of are electricity is from fuel sourced power plants.
Depends on where you live. Most of ours is hydro here in the PNW and places like TX are getting a lot more wind turbines going. Over time there will be more renewables than fossil fuel plants.

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Originally Posted by cedarboarder View Post
#3 They can hardly keep up with the demand on rare elements in batterys. we don't have enough resources on the planet to make ever car electric.
Nah, they've got enough and those materials can be recycled. It's kinda hard to recycle gasoline and eventually we will run out of oil while the sun will keep shining.

It's a little too easy to poopoo electric vehicles when we're used to gassers, but all these problems can be overcome. If you were to really look at it objectively, like someone just dropped in from space and was given the options: Fuel from dead dinosaurs that is explosive, limited availability and highly polluting vs free energy from the sun, wind, and moving water...which do you think would really make more sense? We're just used to rolling around with a tank full of explosives which is the only reason we still do it.
BTW, I don't have an electric vehicle. I drive everywhere in a full size gas guzzling pickup like most of us because it's what works right now. If I could trade it for an electric (and put some panels on my roof) and still get the work done I would do it in a heartbeat. We're not quite there yet, but I think/hope we'll be getting close in a few years.
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Old 04-04-2019, 11:31 PM   #62
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


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...and they're not selling a whole lotta parkas in Honolulu. Right now electric vehicles still work in cold climates, just with less range.



Depends on where you live. Most of ours is hydro here in the PNW and places like TX are getting a lot more wind turbines going. Over time there will be more renewables than fossil fuel plants.





Nah, they've got enough and those materials can be recycled. It's kinda hard to recycle gasoline and eventually we will run out of oil while the sun will keep shining.



It's a little too easy to poopoo electric vehicles when we're used to gassers, but all these problems can be overcome. If you were to really look at it objectively, like someone just dropped in from space and was given the options: Fuel from dead dinosaurs that is explosive, limited availability and highly polluting vs free energy from the sun, wind, and moving water...which do you think would really make more sense? We're just used to rolling around with a tank full of explosives which is the only reason we still do it.

BTW, I don't have an electric vehicle. I drive everywhere in a full size gas guzzling pickup like most of us because it's what works right now. If I could trade it for an electric (and put some panels on my roof) and still get the work done I would do it in a heartbeat. We're not quite there yet, but I think/hope we'll be getting close in a few years.


Cold has more effects than range. Lithium batteries canít change below a certain temp.

The main idea with electric cars is you plug them in everywhere you go to have the range you need. If the battery canít charge because itís cold thatís a big issue
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Old 04-04-2019, 11:46 PM   #63
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


Windmills are unrealistic and that's not including the environmental aspect of it.

How many windmills does it take to meet the power needs of a typical city, much less New York City?

At www.scitizen.com, Kurt Cobb worked the numbers. Generously, he presumed the windmills would use 5-megawatt turbines - generating three times the output of a typical 1.5-megawatt turbine. He compared that with a 500-megawatt fossil-fuel (coal) power plant needed to power a city of 300,000 people. A typical power plant, he noted, would cover 300 acres, but use only 30 of those for the actual facility.

Cobb calculated it would take 233 5-megawatt wind turbines to equal the coal plant's output, since the wind doesn't blow constantly. Each would need to be spaced 2,065 feet away from the others (five times the diameter of their 413-foot rotors). Adding the rotor diameters to the spacing requirement equates to a 110-mile long line of windmills, half a mile in width.

It comes to 55 square miles. That's to provide electricity for a town of 300,000 people.

New York City has 8.1 million residents. Manhattan Island totals 23 square miles. So, based on Cobb's calculations, it would take six and a half Manhattan Islands, each covered totally with windmills, to power one-tenth of New York City. And if standard 1.5-megawatt wind turbines were used, they would take three times more space.

Mayor Bloomberg's vision is flawed. But it's typical of the pie-in-the-sky energy "solutions" suggested by those who would rather "go green" than "get real."(Bloomberg looks positively reasonable compared to the Australian engineer who proposed a giant helicopter carrying wind rotors 15,000 feet into the sky, and sending back electricity through a tether wire super-sized extension cord!)

Going back to Kurt Cobb's calculations, if we wanted to meet the electric needs of 300 million Americans rather than only 300,000, we'd need a half-mile swath of windmills, each of them hundreds of feet high, 110,000 miles long, crisscrossing the continent 40 times between New York City and Los Angeles.

That's a lot of land to condemn. The cost would be in the hundreds of billions of dollars, since each large windmill costs millions.

https://www.heritage.org/environment...out-wind-power


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Old 04-05-2019, 12:32 AM   #64
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


Wind turbines also are killing huge numbers of birds and haven't had the environmental scrutiny that conventional energy systems have had. If anyone is really concerned about the environment then they should be concerned about the rush to push these monstrosities.

For now natural gas power plants are the most economical and clean way to go and since we're blessed with the largest natural gas reserves in the world it's a very clean and affordable bridge to carry us until truly clean energy sources come online.

Electric vehicles will come on more and more as battery technology advances although I've heard there are some real concerns about high speed crashes and electric vehicles.
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:04 AM   #65
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/thor...ergy-solution/

I'm going to copy paste because not simple to explain...
Uranium is used to fuel the world's nuclear power plants, but a vocal segment of the scientific community claims that it's too dangerous and rare a chemical to sustain that role for much longer. In the feature-length documentary*Thorium: An Energy Solution, they make the case for a much more efficient and sustainable answer to our energy needs.

This argument is led by Kirk Sorensen, a former NASA aerospace engineer, who has long championed the adoption of thorium as a solution to the growing energy crisis. The film presents highlights from a series of rapidly edited lectures led by Sorensen and others. During the course of these speaking engagements, they bemoan the drawbacks of current nuclear-powered technologies, and enthusiastically promote the ways in which*thorium could transform the future of our civilization.

The science is vast, and difficult for the layperson to grasp at times, but the overarching message is well articulated and clear. In a world of dwindling resources, and ongoing concerns over the safety of nuclear power, the film contends that thorium could be our last great hope.

Even though officials seem largely oblivious to its potential applications today, thorium's viability as an unlimited nuclear fuel was first discovered in 1942. Its advantages should be much clearer to us now, especially in the aftermath of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster in 2011, which resulted from the damage inflicted by a devastating tsunami, or other incidents and close-calls that have occurred throughout recent history.

Thorium is*more abundantly available than uranium. When used as a fuel to power nuclear energy, it requires no water for cooling, doesn't require pressure for its operation, is non-combustible and won't expel toxic waste should plant malfunction occur. Sorensen makes a persuasive and impassioned case for a safer and more sustainable nuclear energy infrastructure driven by the use of liquid-fluoride thorium reactors. Reliance on this method, he argues, will produce greater reserves of power at a much lower cost than wind and solar.

It's a great doc.

https://terrapower.com/




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Old 04-05-2019, 09:42 AM   #66
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by SPG View Post
...and they're not selling a whole lotta parkas in Honolulu. Right now electric vehicles still work in cold climates, just with less range.

Depends on where you live. Most of ours is hydro here in the PNW and places like TX are getting a lot more wind turbines going. Over time there will be more renewables than fossil fuel plants.


Nah, they've got enough and those materials can be recycled. It's kinda hard to recycle gasoline and eventually we will run out of oil while the sun will keep shining.
They are crap in the cold. less range? I need to get to work not half way to work, they simply don't work in extreme temps.

Doesn't change the fact that the majority of are power is from natural resources.

I gotta disagree, just isnt enough .With over a billion vehicles on the planet your talking 10s of BILLIONS of large battery's. With the life time of the batteries and recycling that number is even higher.

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Old 04-05-2019, 09:51 AM   #67
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


The writings already on the wall:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...-idUSKBN1F30YZ
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:16 AM   #68
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


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Cold has more effects than range. Lithium batteries canít change below a certain temp.

The main idea with electric cars is you plug them in everywhere you go to have the range you need. If the battery canít charge because itís cold thatís a big issue
So when you get a flat tire do you throw away the whole vehicle? Of course not. When you have a problem you think up a solution.
Just off the top of my head, and I'm not an engineer or EV advocate but just a dumb nailbanger... You could park in a garage overnight to keep your battery above freezing. The carmakers could insulate the batteries, develop a battery heater, combine a smaller gas engine that can charge and heat the battery, provide a swappable lead acid battery pack for winter use, and I'm sure they've got better solutions than that since it's actually their business and they're working on it 24/7.
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:26 AM   #69
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


Kind of reminds me of the digital watch. Every IC manufacturer it seems decided it was a market they wanted to be in. Almost all lost their butts.

What happens when supply outstrips demand, and China is a fast follower in developing the technology? What happens to conventional efficiency if the development money is shifted to electric?
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:43 AM   #70
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


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Windmills are unrealistic and that's not including the environmental aspect of it.
How many windmills does it take to meet the power needs of a typical city, much less New York City?
It would also be ludicrous to power the whole world with hamster wheels. How many wheels? How many hamsters? How long can a hamster run before another hamster has to take its place? OMG!! Soooo many hamsters!
There's a lot of power generating options. They all have their pros and cons and a big con for the coal and oil burners is pollution and environmental destruction. I kinda like the environment so I prefer to keep it cleaner. You know what's a really cheap power source? Hydro. Also happens to be pretty clean too. Doesn't work in the dessert of course and I don't recall seeing any waterfalls in Manhattan but the eastern grid gets quite a bit from Niagra Falls. Wind is a good source too. So is solar. So is tidal. You combine all of these and you get a redundant power source that doesn't depend on just one element. We still have nuclear plants, gas, and even coal in the mix for the NY area but eventually that's going to shift more to renewable sources.

But back to windmills...
Quote:
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That's a lot of land to condemn. The cost would be in the hundreds of billions of dollars, since each large windmill costs millions.
Have you ever seen what mountain top removal looks like for coal mining? You ever see what happens to the streams? The retention ponds? Total devastation on a biblical scale.
Then you get the coal and burn it pumping out pollutants that shorten everyone's lifespan. Calculate that cost.
Natural gas fracking has it's own issues with water supplies that get contaminated. Calculate that cost.
Oil drilling. Same thing and has the Gulf really recovered from the last spill yet?

If you look in the areas of Europe where they get a lot of wind power, the turbines are often off shore where you can't even see them from land and the wind is constant. No people are being displaced.

For the record, I'm not a Greenieweenie. I drive a gas guzzling truck. I build stuff and that means I'm responsible for cutting down a heck of a lot of trees and paving a bunch of roads, but I get it...we can and should do a little better. It's not going to be perfect, but it can be better. I still remember what it was like to drive through NYC on a hot summer day in the 70's...it was horrible! The exhaust fumes would choke you and your eyes would burn and it was hazy and gross. We've come a long way since then and I wouldn't mind us taking it a little further.

Wind isn't the only answer. Electric cars aren't the only answer. They're all just little parts and pieces that can make it work a little better for some of us in some situations. I'll probably still have my same truck for a few years but when it's time for a new one I'd love to have the option of an electric or hybrid so I'm not pissing away $100/week for gasoline.
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:44 AM   #71
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


Then there's this

If hydrocarbons are renewable- then is "Peak Oil" a fraud?
http://321energy.com/editorials/bain...man083105.html



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Old 04-05-2019, 10:51 AM   #72
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


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Then there's this

If hydrocarbons are renewable- then is "Peak Oil" a fraud?
http://321energy.com/editorials/bain...man083105.html



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Is the "peak oil" argument still around? I thought that was based on the old paradigm, like before the quantum leaps in exploration and recovery technology. (eg. fracking)
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:54 AM   #73
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


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So when you get a flat tire do you throw away the whole vehicle? Of course not. When you have a problem you think up a solution.

Just off the top of my head, and I'm not an engineer or EV advocate but just a dumb nailbanger... You could park in a garage overnight to keep your battery above freezing. The carmakers could insulate the batteries, develop a battery heater, combine a smaller gas engine that can charge and heat the battery, provide a swappable lead acid battery pack for winter use, and I'm sure they've got better solutions than that since it's actually their business and they're working on it 24/7.
what do you plan on using to heat this garage with?
you idea is to have a gas engine to heat the batterys while it's parked or driving in the cold. counter productive no doubt

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Old 04-05-2019, 10:57 AM   #74
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


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what do you plan on using to heat this garage with?

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geothermal
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Old 04-05-2019, 11:09 AM   #75
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


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Originally Posted by cedarboarder View Post
what do you plan on using to heat this garage with?
you idea is to have a gas engine to heat the batterys while it's parked or driving in the cold. counter productive no doubt

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It still might be worthwhile..or not. Problems are addressed, numbers are crunched to see if it works, and we all move along. We solve problems all the time.
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Old 04-05-2019, 11:11 AM   #76
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


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geothermal
still doesn't help the car work in the cold. Can heat it for days but once you open that door to use it doesn't matter how warm the battery is.
Every job site will need a geo thermal garage.
every camp ground will need a geo thermal garage.
every store will need a geo thermal garage.
so now we are talking huge geo thermal power plants. big risks of earthquakes in some or most power hungry regions. its not realistic

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Old 04-05-2019, 11:17 AM   #77
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


How dangerous is nuclear power?

Truth: Nuclear energy is as safe or safer than any other form of energy available. No member of the public has ever been injured or killed in the entire 50-year history of commercial nuclear power in the U.S. In fact, recent studies have shown that it is safer to work in a nuclear power plant than an office.

If it was really able clean air we'd just go nuclear.

But the environmental religion won't accept it.

There is no solution for huge amounts of nuclear waste being generated.

Truth: All of the used nuclear fuel generated in every nuclear plant in the past 50 years would fill a football field to a depth of less than 10 yards, and 96 % of this ďwasteĒ can be recycled [5]. Used fuel is currently being safely stored. The U.S. National Academy of Sciences and the equivalent scientific advisory panels in every major country support geological disposal of such wastes as the preferred safe method for their ultimate disposal[6].

Myths About Nuclear Energy

# 1: Americans get most of their yearly radiation dose from nuclear power plants.

Truth: We are surrounded by naturally occurring radiation. Only 0.005% of the average Americanís yearly radiation dose comes from nuclear power; 100 times less than we get from coal [1], 200 times less than a cross-country flight, and about the same as eating 1 banana per year [2].

# 2: A nuclear reactor can explode like a nuclear bomb.

Truth: It is impossible for a reactor to explode like a nuclear weapon; these weapons contain very special materials in very particular configurations, neither of which are present in a nuclear reactor.

#3: Nuclear energy is bad for the environment.

Truth: Nuclear reactors emit no greenhouse gases during operation. Over their full lifetimes, they result in comparable emissions to renewable forms of energy such as wind and solar [3]. Nuclear energy requires less land use than most other forms of energy.

# 4: Nuclear energy is not safe.

Truth: Nuclear energy is as safe or safer than any other form of energy available. No member of the public has ever been injured or killed in the entire 50-year history of commercial nuclear power in the U.S. In fact, recent studies have shown that it is safer to work in a nuclear power plant than an office [4].

# 5: There is no solution for huge amounts of nuclear waste being generated.

Truth: All of the used nuclear fuel generated in every nuclear plant in the past 50 years would fill a football field to a depth of less than 10 yards, and 96 % of this ďwasteĒ can be recycled [5]. Used fuel is currently being safely stored. The U.S. National Academy of Sciences and the equivalent scientific advisory panels in every major country support geological disposal of such wastes as the preferred safe method for their ultimate disposal[6].

# 6: Most Americans donít support nuclear power.

Truth: In a survey conducted in September 2016, it was found that 75% of Americans feel nuclear energy will be important in meeting the countryís future electricity needs, and 45 % believe this importance will increase with time. In addition, 80% of respondents favor renewing operating licenses for nuclear power plants that continue to meet federal safety standards. Also, 68% believe that nuclear power plants operating in the United States are safe and secure.

# 7: An American ďChernobylĒ would kill thousands of people.

Truth: A Chernobyl-type accident could not have happened outside of the Soviet Union because this type of reactor was never built or operated here. The known fatalities during the Chernobyl accident were mostly emergency first responders [8]. Of the people known to have received a high radiation dose, the increase in cancer incidence is too small to measure due to other causes of cancer such as air pollution and tobacco use.

# 8: Nuclear waste cannot be safely transported.

Truth: Used fuel is being safely shipped by truck, rail, and cargo ship today. To date, thousands of shipments have been transported with no leaks or cracks of the specially-designed casks [9].

# 9: Used nuclear fuel is deadly for 10,000 years.

Truth: Used nuclear fuel can be recycled to make new fuel and byproducts [10]. Most of the waste from this process will require a storage time of less than 300 years. Finally, less than 1% is radioactive for 10,000 years. This portion is not much more radioactive than some things found in nature, and can be easily shielded to protect humans and wildlife.

# 10: Nuclear energy canít reduce our dependence on foreign oil.

Truth: Nuclear-generated electricity powers electric trains and subway cars as well as autos today. It has also been used in propelling ships for more than 50 years. That use can be increased since it has been restricted by unofficial policy to military vessels and ice breakers. In the near-term, nuclear power can provide electricity for expanded mass-transit and plug-in hybrid cars. Small modular reactors can provide power to islands like Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Nantucket and Guam that currently run their electrical grids on imported oil. In the longer-term, nuclear power can directly reduce our dependence on foreign oil by producing hydrogen for use in fuel cells and synthetic liquid fuels.

http://nuclearconnect.org/know-nucle...nuclear-energy


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Old 04-05-2019, 11:31 AM   #78
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by cedarboarder View Post
still doesn't help the car work in the cold. Can heat it for days but once you open that door to use it doesn't matter how warm the battery is.
Every job site will need a geo thermal garage.
every camp ground will need a geo thermal garage.
every store will need a geo thermal garage.
so now we are talking huge geo thermal power plants. big risks of earthquakes in some or most power hungry regions. its not realistic
Global warming to the rescue...
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Old 04-05-2019, 11:36 AM   #79
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by cedarboarder View Post
https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/thor...ergy-solution/

I'm going to copy paste because not simple to explain...
Uranium is used to fuel the world's nuclear power plants, but a vocal segment of the scientific community claims that it's too dangerous and rare a chemical to sustain that role for much longer. In the feature-length documentary*Thorium: An Energy Solution, they make the case for a much more efficient and sustainable answer to our energy needs.

This argument is led by Kirk Sorensen, a former NASA aerospace engineer, who has long championed the adoption of thorium as a solution to the growing energy crisis. The film presents highlights from a series of rapidly edited lectures led by Sorensen and others. During the course of these speaking engagements, they bemoan the drawbacks of current nuclear-powered technologies, and enthusiastically promote the ways in which*thorium could transform the future of our civilization.

The science is vast, and difficult for the layperson to grasp at times, but the overarching message is well articulated and clear. In a world of dwindling resources, and ongoing concerns over the safety of nuclear power, the film contends that thorium could be our last great hope.

Even though officials seem largely oblivious to its potential applications today, thorium's viability as an unlimited nuclear fuel was first discovered in 1942. Its advantages should be much clearer to us now, especially in the aftermath of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster in 2011, which resulted from the damage inflicted by a devastating tsunami, or other incidents and close-calls that have occurred throughout recent history.

Thorium is*more abundantly available than uranium. When used as a fuel to power nuclear energy, it requires no water for cooling, doesn't require pressure for its operation, is non-combustible and won't expel toxic waste should plant malfunction occur. Sorensen makes a persuasive and impassioned case for a safer and more sustainable nuclear energy infrastructure driven by the use of liquid-fluoride thorium reactors. Reliance on this method, he argues, will produce greater reserves of power at a much lower cost than wind and solar.

It's a great doc.

https://terrapower.com/




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I've heard about the Thorium alternative also, sure sounds like it would be worth doing some and see where it would go.

It's very likely the fusion reactor problems are going to worked out in the next 20-30 years if we don't derail our economy by short sighted feel good demands that aren't practical or economical.

There really isn't a crisis, the continual lurch from one crisis to another is designed to keep everybody in a state of anxiety and befuddlement.

There also is no such thing as 'settled science' and anyone who goes around calling people who have doubts as to the seriousness of climate change a denier is a zealot who is worshiping at the altar of the religion of rabid environmentalism.
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Old 04-05-2019, 11:45 AM   #80
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Re: The Switch To Electric Vehicles.....


The thorium reactor partially solves the problem of proliferation. The reactors could be used in any country without great weapons concerns.

The rest of it amounts to claims that, if it's technically and economically viable, it will be a better long term solution.

So far, there is no indication there is such a solution zone.

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