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Slider Vs DCMS

 
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Old 02-11-2015, 07:41 AM   #21
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


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Originally Posted by Xtrememtnbiker View Post
I just think you can't stand in front of the saw, reach back and flip the lever, and pull the saw which ever way you want it, lock the lever, and return back to the position in front of the saw.

It may only be 5 seconds not 3 but if it takes 1 second to miter and cutting big trim is what you do daily, I could see not wanting a Kapex.

Again, you may be working like a mad man, but I'm working at a reasonable pace. Whatever speed you can bevel at, to miter at that same speed will be 3x faster than beveling even on the Kapex.

Although, as nice as the saw is, I might not care that it takes longer.

Of course miters are faster they would be on any saw but bevels are part of the business and when they are as easy as a kapex to adjust and set compared to stuff like the makita, Bosch, hitachi, Milwaukee etc etc

So if they do larger material that needs to be laid flat and speed is what they want the kapex can't be beat.

The worst upto yet has been the makita bevel on my 1013. It used to be a chore to bevel with that.
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Old 02-11-2015, 07:49 AM   #22
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


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Originally Posted by BCConstruction View Post
Of course miters are faster they would be on any saw but bevels are part of the business and when they are as easy as a kapex to adjust and set compared to stuff like the makita, Bosch, hitachi, Milwaukee etc etc

So if they do larger material that needs to be laid flat and speed is what they want the kapex can't be beat.

The worst upto yet has been the makita bevel on my 1013. It used to be a chore to bevel with that.

On a 716 he doesn't need to bevel. That's the point.
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Old 02-11-2015, 07:50 AM   #23
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


To the OP.

The best trim carpenter I know didn't even know what festool was when I asked him about it. He is old school. Does nothing but trim houses all day everyday.

He drug an old dewalt miter saw out of his truck and went to town on the house I was also working on. It was a fixed saw. I asked him about it. He said the same thing. You won't get better cuts than a fixed saw, and it suits his need for the vast majority of his work. Then after he said you won't getter better cuts than a fixed saw, he said you won't get better cuts than a fixed saw with a smaller blade. His go to saw was a 8-1/2" dewalt I believe.

I checked out his work and let me tell you, his work was a lot tighter than my big 12" slider could do.
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Old 02-11-2015, 08:16 AM   #24
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


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Originally Posted by Xtrememtnbiker View Post
On a 716 he doesn't need to bevel. That's the point.

I'm not talking about any dewalt. What my point is that the kapex is very simple to put into bevel setting compared to any other saw. For me it's more important for a saw to have a flat capacity more than a nested capacity because of how much different work I do and the bevel system on the kapex is as fast as it could possibly get.

12" saws also have a big issue with blade deflection compared to a 10" saw so for detailed work the 12" in my eyes wouldn't be better than a 10".
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Old 02-11-2015, 08:56 AM   #25
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


I liked the old Hitachi slider, but I use a fixed.
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Old 02-11-2015, 05:54 PM   #26
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


I was taught on a slider. I just don't like using fixed saws. I have a 716 that I only use for outdoor work,mainly places I wouldn't want to use my kapex or makitas .
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Old 02-11-2015, 05:59 PM   #27
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


I like them both.
I use a 10" fixed and slider, both Makita. The fixed is great for smaller base and trim jobs, decking and framing.
The slider has been living in truck lately though.
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Old 02-11-2015, 06:45 PM   #28
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


Justin what fs saw blade do you use and where are you buying them.
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Old 02-11-2015, 07:04 PM   #29
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


12" miter saw SM 6300 or LM 6301 for veneers
12" scms LM 4300 or LM 6301
10" scms LM 6250

I buy them through Carbide.com or Tools Xpress.
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Old 02-11-2015, 07:17 PM   #30
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


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Originally Posted by BCConstruction View Post
I'm not talking about any dewalt. What my point is that the kapex is very simple to put into bevel setting compared to any other saw. For me it's more important for a saw to have a flat capacity more than a nested capacity because of how much different work I do and the bevel system on the kapex is as fast as it could possibly get.

12" saws also have a big issue with blade deflection compared to a 10" saw so for detailed work the 12" in my eyes wouldn't be better than a 10".
Deflection is the reason to run standard kerf blades vs thin. Saws designed to work in a production environment like Omga, CTD, or Pistorius start at 12" and go up from there. They are renowned for their accuracy. Their build quality is substantially better than the saws most of us run on a job site but the blades are subject to the same laws of physics.

If you run thin kerf blades I can see having deflection issues. The blades I use are designed for commercial art framing. Heavy plate, low side clearances, high tooth count, negative hook. I have no problems fitting intricate work with a 12" saw running these.
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Old 02-11-2015, 07:38 PM   #31
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


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Originally Posted by Justin Huisenga View Post
I have wondered the same for years. I own sliding saws because sometimes they are the most efficient way to get a job done but prefer fixed. They are lighter, smaller, easier to adjust, tend to hold their tune up settings better, and cost less to purchase. All of these features are money in your pocket. A 716 will handle about 95% of the trim an average house.



You can modify a Hitachi C15 to cut up to about 10" in position on the left of the blade if you are handy with a grinder and don't mind that much carbide spinning in your face without a guard. The pic shows a pair of auxiliary fences for a 76 that will allow for crown out to about 9" to be cut in position on a 716. The largest I've run on them was 8".



If you want to dramatically minimize blade deflection switch from thin kerf to standard kerf. Everyone always debates one brand of saw vs another when all the saw does is spin the blade. The blade does most of the work. A top quality industrial (not one that has the name industrial printed on the side) makes such a difference in both quality and accuracy that it's like running a different saw.


Can you take those fences off? I'd love a picture with them off and see what you had to grind... And I'd love to see more pictures of the system I have that saw and always looking for ways to improve cutting
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Old 02-11-2015, 08:19 PM   #32
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


The fences are removable. To use them you pull off the movable fences and screw the aux. fences on through the holes in the fixed lower fence. They are just a set of fences set further back than the factory fences allowing you to cut with the portion of the blade that would normally behind the fence. They are made out of scrap that was around in this case mdf, vc ply, and poplar.

On a 716 you don't grind anything. On the old Hitachi C15 you pulled off the blade guard and cut out a big chunk of the blade cover on the left side of the blade to gain vertical capacity. Not the safest set up but effective.
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Old 02-11-2015, 09:15 PM   #33
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


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The fences are removable. To use them you pull off the movable fences and screw the aux. fences on through the holes in the fixed lower fence. They are just a set of fences set further back than the factory fences allowing you to cut with the portion of the blade that would normally behind the fence. They are made out of scrap that was around in this case mdf, vc ply, and poplar.



On a 716 you don't grind anything. On the old Hitachi C15 you pulled off the blade guard and cut out a big chunk of the blade cover on the left side of the blade to gain vertical capacity. Not the safest set up but effective.

So technically the upper portion of your aux fence is sitting behind where the stock fence is? Which allows a greater cut capacity?
Are you running the usual dewalt fold up stand? And he just added the supports on to it?
I put blocks onto mine and the wings can sTill pull out but it makes the stand SOOOOOOO heavy
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Old 02-11-2015, 09:46 PM   #34
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


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So technically the upper portion of your aux fence is sitting behind where the stock fence is? Which allows a greater cut capacity?
Are you running the usual dewalt fold up stand? And he just added the supports on to it?
I put blocks onto mine and the wings can sTill pull out but it makes the stand SOOOOOOO heavy
That's pretty much it. The DeWalt saws have a back fence for cutting wider material flat. That's where I got the idea.

The stand is the compact version. The wings are 5' long and attached with AD&E couplers. Once it's set up I don't usually move it much. If I do I break it down.
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Old 02-12-2015, 01:16 PM   #35
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


To the original OP .i agree ,same experience 95% of my work could be done on a nonslider .used that dewalt double bevel and switch blades alot depending on type of work .i also own a kapex .i found by making flaps with duct tape at the intake of my dewalt i easily replicate the dust collection of the kapex .
i also own a big 12" milwaukee slider ,i put a good blade on it and the cut is exceptional .i have yet to notice any deflection . because of the size though it stays in the shop where i actually do use the larger cut width . even in the shop it is so big and loud .kapex quiet -milwaukee loud .
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Old 02-14-2015, 01:07 AM   #36
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


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Here we go again. How comes it's always people who don't own the kapex who feel this deflection?

Yet no one who owns it feels that Deflection. I'm starting to think its a case of the green eyed monsters coming out to play.
I own the kapex and there is deflection but not bad. The old hitachi 8 1/2 has less deflection for sure.
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Old 02-14-2015, 08:36 AM   #37
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


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I own the kapex and there is deflection but not bad. The old hitachi 8 1/2 has less deflection for sure.

Why is no one saying where this deflection is.


Ok for the people with deflection on the kapex is it in the.

1.head
2.rails
3.arbor
4.blade

I have not found deflection in any of the 4 so I'm curious to as why so many on here have deflection issues on the kapex yet don't say what is causing the defection.

If it's the blade then it's not really the saws fault. Clean the blade, sharpen the blade, get a better blade etc etc. I stick with the festool blades as I have had no deflection issues with them but mine are always sharp and clean.
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Old 02-14-2015, 09:36 AM   #38
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


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Why is no one saying where this deflection is.


Ok for the people with deflection on the kapex is it in the.

1.head
2.rails
3.arbor
4.blade

I have not found deflection in any of the 4 so I'm curious to as why so many on here have deflection issues on the kapex yet don't say what is causing the defection.

If it's the blade then it's not really the saws fault. Clean the blade, sharpen the blade, get a better blade etc etc. I stick with the festool blades as I have had no deflection issues with them but mine are always sharp and clean.
I haven't had any deflection with kapex either and have used a CMT blade on it. The festool blades are higher quality (I think theyre made by forrest?) so the CMT is just an interim/back up blade.

As for the 12" saws, blade quality is everything. The big heavy rigid cuts pretty damn straight with a Tenryu but still has some deflection in the rail.

As for the slider argument... I doubt I'll ever have a non-slider again. Too many things like stair treads, bottom stiles on barn doors, and a bunch of big timber that just could not be cut by a dcms. Fine for some, but isnt a one size fits all.
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Old 02-14-2015, 10:30 AM   #39
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


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Originally Posted by Justin Huisenga View Post
Deflection is the reason to run standard kerf blades vs thin. Saws designed to work in a production environment like Omga, CTD, or Pistorius start at 12" and go up from there. They are renowned for their accuracy. Their build quality is substantially better than the saws most of us run on a job site but the blades are subject to the same laws of physics.

If you run thin kerf blades I can see having deflection issues. The blades I use are designed for commercial art framing. Heavy plate, low side clearances, high tooth count, negative hook. I have no problems fitting intricate work with a 12" saw running these.
Low side clearance blades have failed me every time. They get hot. They suck in a TS, RAS and a stationary chop saw. Always had blade flutter, even with a heavier plate. Ok, they are fine in pine.

I don't think you can compare a 5k Omga to a portable saw either.

The negative hook really only makes a diference with a RAS.
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Old 02-14-2015, 12:22 PM   #40
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Re: Slider Vs DCMS


There is a slight amount of flex in the head with the saw pulled back on the kapex. I have a half dozen or so festool blades and another half dozen of tenryu which do cut better and last longer.

However, I don't think head deflection causes cut problems on the kapex. I think the throat insert needs to be replaced with something stiffer - after time it doesn't sit flush with the table and sags between the screw points. It also can tip in slightly with pressure.

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