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Not liking where our trade is headed

8K views 72 replies 41 participants last post by  AustinDB 
#1 ·
I'm 58 years young & I have had my own business for over 30 years now. I started out framing, exterior then interior trim, built homes along with four log homes, & for the last 20 plus years have settled in the remodeling area with some custom trim work. I said all that to let you know I have been around awhile. I see more & more of the younger generation investing fortunes that some, not all can't afford just to be seen with.....well I'll go ahead & say it " The Lime Green Tools" Just curious, not to be offensive, to each his or her own & all the other good intentions for asking this. If you have a power tool that is dependable, works well, & you know what your doing with it then how can the price you pay for a tool make you more money than another ?
 
#2 ·
Festool has about the best customer service, excellent warranty, lasts a long time, and has remarkable dust collection. I spend less time cleaning up, and keep clients homes relatively dust free. Very important when remodeling in an occupied home.

The rail saws transformed the way I work. I can be much more efficient, and the less time I spend on a job, the more money I make. I don't charge less because I can work faster.

I don't have a lot of Festool. I have a CT22, TS55 track saw, RO125 and ETS 125 sander, and I have a few others in my sights. The Domino is on my short list. Another tool that doesn't have a cheap knock-off available.

Yeah, they are expensive, but I think if you chose the particular tools you get the most use out of, and go with more common brands for the less used tools, you can get a good compromise.
 
#3 ·
Sawdust,

You have a great point. But I think a bit misdirected. Festool is not about making fancy tools so guys can feel good about themselves. And they are not about making an elitist tool. They are about fine craftsmanship and great features that we have all wanted and demanded for years. Think about it, a vac that actually has great suction and the dust filtration that has yet been beat.

There are contractors out there that think by buying Festool they are better, but we all know that it's the hands you place the tool in not the tool you place in the hand.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Sawdust,

1) Festool is not about making fancy tools so guys can feel good about themselves.
2) And they are not about making an elitist tool.

They are about fine craftsmanship and great features that we have all wanted and demanded for years. Think about it, a vac that actually has great suction and the dust filtration that has yet been beat.

There are contractors out there that think by buying Festool they are better, but we all know that it's the hands you place the tool in not the tool you place in the hand.
Sorry Rob,

Now you're in my wheel house.

1) There is a bit of "making fancy tools so guys can feel good about themselves" i.e.:

The rail saw.
As a craftsman, there are techniques, jigs, and muscle memory in working with certain tools that "one" develops over the years that I believe Festool is trying to capitalize on. I don't blame them for this.
There was a need in the field, and they responded. This need is education with hand tools and power tools.

I'm not denying the tools they produce are of very high quality. What I have a problem with, and I think was the OP's sentiment, is that, tool + jig + dust collection, = craftsmanship... you just have to fork over $500 for a rail saw,
...oh you're working inside, well then you need this dust collection system..

It adds up...and the rail saw was based off of an idea ripped out of FHB years before its inception.

2) They are about making the elitist tool.

That's where there price point is, all of their accessories are "proprietary", and they have done a brilliant job marketing and expanding the product. Modular stacking, tables, clamps...out the wazoo! But when I buy a $500 circ saw, that doesn't take standard blades and cost me another $200, 250? for "the piece of aluminum" that makes it cuts straight.:rolleyes:
its just a lot of accessory gimick for me that was solved years ago with plywood, screws, clamps and a little know how.

I don't go onto Festool threads and bash the guys for using them. If it works great.

Like you said, and I'm gonna paraphrase:

"It's not the tool, the guy is behind, but the guy behind the tool."

The one thing I can't debate you on is the dust collection.

They are at the top of the field with that.

-Scott
 
#4 ·
Blah, Blah, Blah...

...festool....;)

I love this topic.

Jim,

I signed on to CT about 3 weeks ago.

I started in the trades about 18 years ago.

When I did, I learned everything that I could while I was on site and was even scolded, more times than I care to admit about "production" procedures.

Was taught by a custom trim carpenter at the time: "you don't need a table saw for this, cut it like this, and the benchtop jointer is over there to clean up the cut."

This taught me to get surgical with the circular saw. Funny thing is, once you get the muscle memory down for this, you can rip anything on a razor's edge once you get it down.

This is lacking today...

I sent out a couple posts today in response to a guy wanting to "find a jig" to rip tapers on 2x6 material 16' long, on a TABLE SAW?

...*sigh*...

And up came the posts for a rail saw...

I had to look that up,

I saw what it was and its essentially a jig for a circ saw that I had seen in FHB years ago, all wrapped up in one product.

In closing, I hear you, and will leave you with what a lead carpenter told another carpenter they had just hired, with the company I was working for at the time:

"Just 'cause you have a bunch of tools doesn't mean you know how to use them.."

There was a time in this country when the carpenter "built" all the wooden aspects to the house...

...I'm just coming into the time when I work with guys that refer to the framing square as the "corner checker".

...I have to laugh,

...cause I'm all outta tears.

-Scott

:thumbsup:
 
#52 ·
Blah, Blah, Blah...

...festool....;)

I love this topic.

Jim,

I signed on to CT about 3 weeks ago.

I started in the trades about 18 years ago.

When I did, I learned everything that I could while I was on site and was even scolded, more times than I care to admit about "production" procedures.

Was taught by a custom trim carpenter at the time: "you don't need a table saw for this, cut it like this, and the benchtop jointer is over there to clean up the cut."

This taught me to get surgical with the circular saw. Funny thing is, once you get the muscle memory down for this, you can rip anything on a razor's edge once you get it down.

This is lacking today...

I sent out a couple posts today in response to a guy wanting to "find a jig" to rip tapers on 2x6 material 16' long, on a TABLE SAW?

...*sigh*...

And up came the posts for a rail saw...

I had to look that up,

I saw what it was and its essentially a jig for a circ saw that I had seen in FHB years ago, all wrapped up in one product.

In closing, I hear you, and will leave you with what a lead carpenter told another carpenter they had just hired, with the company I was working for at the time:

"Just 'cause you have a bunch of tools doesn't mean you know how to use them.."

There was a time in this country when the carpenter "built" all the wooden aspects to the house...

...I'm just coming into the time when I work with guys that refer to the framing square as the "corner checker".

...I have to laugh,

...cause I'm all outta tears.

-Scott

:thumbsup:
I just use a 8' level and two quick clamps if I need a perfect cut.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Like an old saying goes to each its own...

There is so many tools on the market today and they keep making more and more to make a safer and cleaner environments to work in and make our work more efficient and productive.

I remember framing and pounding 10p nails from sunrise until dawn... Or trimming houses one after another, pounding finishing nails, beating fingers up, then setting them... Then guns came out, to own one you needed compressor, then hoses,etc... It was a lot of money to layout, but when you get it, you kick yourself in the head you haven't done it sooner.

We don't by this toys to impress anyone,I love my old tools and swear by them... But when replacement is due or upgrade is needed, the change should be for better and more productive tool. We're in the business and we use tools day in day out and if we can afford a new tool which hits the market...and we could use it, why not go out and get one? Guys don't don't come here to show off, call it ... they come here to tease ehehe

Someone said the younger generation... Well it is the younger generation it is our future ( God help us all) and if they have a few dollars burning a hole in theirs pocket, why not go out and get a new toy.
I just got a rail saw myself, I don't needed and I don't know what I'm gonna use it for yet, but it looks good on my shelf and when I needed it will pay for itself like anything else.
I also got a new iPhone, after my kids been making a hole in my head to get rid of my cave man's phone... I finally got it, and the only reason I got one it stopped holding charge, and since it got discontinued they cant fix it... and believe me i tried.
So what can I say... It got a lot of new gadgets, I miss some of the features my old phone had and this one doesn't which I hate... But I'm getting use to it and will make it work to my advantage like everything else.
 
#8 ·
This is like saying why do you use a circular saw when they use to use a hand saw, and why do you use nail guns when hammer and nails work just as good or why buy that expensive (300$) miter saw when the (20$) miter box is fine.

Its all about advances in tools in our industry.

These advances let ous be quicker, cleaner, and more efficient.. period...

Which puts more money in our pocket and on top of that helps to keep dust out of the clients home.
 
#9 ·
It doesn't matter the trade or occupation, there will always be guys who buy the best and most expensive to show off, regardless if they know how to use the tools or not. On the other hand, there will be guys using the least expensive tools out there doing nice work with them.

I've purchased quite a few festool tools now and they allow me to work faster and better than without them. The track saw is one example. I can make perfectly straight cuts with zero tearout on either side of a cut. A circular saw can't do that. Period. Muscle memory or not. And when the circ. saw is done, there will be dust everywhere that needs to be cleaned up. Not so with the track saw.

The festool jig saw gives me a perfect 90 degree cut through 2x material. None of my other jig saws have been able to do that.

With the domino I can put cabinet faceframes together faster and more accurate than I could pocket screwing. Not to mention the multitude of other uses that the domino has, and the fact that there is no other comparable tool out there. No, a biscuit jointer is not comparable to a domino.

The vacs are hepa certified. If you work on any house before '78, you have to follow lead RRP rules, and that requires a hepa certified vac.

I also like the fact that these tools will last my lifetime. They are well built. Quite frankly, the current trend with power tools is to build them cheaper and cheaper so they don't last near as long as the original ones. Now that's a trend I don't like. :no:
 
#11 ·
I've always been of the mindset of buying the best I can afford. Sometimes, that's the top of the line tool, sometimes it's not. Most of the festool tools I've priced, I can't justify the cost. What comes outta my trailer on the job isn't what impresses my clients, it what I do with what comes outta my trailer that impresses em.

I did just buy a new tracksaw. Makita version. Had trouble justifying the expense, till I actually used it. Garantee, it's not gonna take long to pay for itself in time savings. I'm an old hard head too & to top it off, I'm from the "showme state" with a showme mentality. :)
 
#12 ·
I don't own any Festool and actually didn't know anything about them until I came on this site a few months ago. We don't have a need for them, we work mostly with structural steel, concrete, rebar, metal studs and occasionally structural wood framing.

But with that said, I can totally see the need for these tools if I was into residential construction, remodeling or trim carpentry. Anything that can speed up your performance and make you more accurate and precise I'm all for and if it keeps you cleaner in the process and Meeks for less cleanup, well that's just a bonus!

Tools will always make you money and be a good investment. If you can afford them then why not have the best?
 
#13 ·
:no: Don't feed the green eyed monsters.

I can put money on it every person who bitches about the festool brand has never even used the tools. If you want to work harder and slower then don't use them. I was told the other week by a drywall finisher that I'm lazy for buying a planex:blink: yeah well ok fella you keep using your man powered pole sanders and I will carry in using my planex :rolleyes:.
 
#15 ·
I would say my mft3 and track saw are used a lot more than my table saw for straight cuts. Unless of course I need thin strips of material cut or lots of small pieces cut. I try and use the TS as much as Incan as it leaves a lot nicer finish that the table saw leaves. If I was in a shop with a nice outfield that could handle 8ft sheets then I may use the table saw more but on site I save the table saw in the trailer until the TS can't do what I need.
 
#19 ·
Aren't lime green tools Ryobi? I would never think of Festool green as lime green.
 
#20 ·
To me it's all a matter of how you look at it. If you feel like you're paying 550.00 for a circular saw yeah it might seem expensive... but 550.00 for an extremely portable table saw doesn't sound bad....I paid more than that for my Bosch table saw.
I don't have a track saw by the way...but it's the next power tool on my list!
 
#21 · (Edited)
The statement was made, "the bench top jointer is over there, clean up the cut."

There is a capital cost in that additional tool in addition to the cost of the circular saw used to make the cut. You now have 2 tools with 2 operations being performed. Two sets ups, 2 chance for error. Then there is the additional time to clean up, maybe just a broom, maybe a vac. With a rail saw it is one and done.

I did look at the thread on cutting tappers on a table saw. I was a +1 for the rail saw. You want to cut the tappers in the shop----unsafe, multiple handling of material, move 16'ers more than once, if the tapper is off then what? Rail saw in the field is all it takes. Work practices evolve as has already been pointed out. I trimmed a front porch with my rail saw, 32' of rail one cut, taught string straight, no dust, yes outside it still gets hooked to the CT. I've done the same with a circ saw, no comparison.

The shooting board has probably been around since the first field cicr saw. The rail saws are just an evolution of the shooting board. Even the Festool TS has evolved since its introduction in 1964.

Tom
 
#24 · (Edited)
Myself, at 61, started framing as a sophmore in high school, I can see both side of this.

A craftsman don't need a green tool to get the job done, because of his skill set.
A green tool can take make it easier for a rookie to get craftsman results.

That's the jist of the arguement.

It's not practical to have the optimum tool to do a large variety of daily tasks.
If you rip cabinet fillers all day, I MIGHT cary table saw to perform the rip, but I never did. My super sawcat did just fine, without a jointer. The only thing I had to do was occaisionally hit it with a block plane which took maybe 15 seconds at the most. This was the senario for me because I framed, did exterior, & interior trim for 20 years, & had a very good skill set as a result. That was before I went out on my own as a an interior trim contractor.

I don't always drink beer, but when I do I drink DOS EQUIS!:jester:

Joe
 
#40 ·
A craftsman don't need a green tool to get the job done, because of his skill set. A green tool can take make it easier for a rookie to get craftsman results. That's the jist of the arguement.
IMHO people who haven't paid their dues don't deserve to have fancy tools. They don't have the same level of appriciation and eventually that special feature becomes more of a crutch than a convenience. But then again I tend to be a little quirky in that kind of way. :laughing:

One thing that bothers me is how someone can get a nail gun and a fancy circular mitre saw and then magically become a "finish carpenter" after doing their first crown & chair moulding job.

I painstakenly went through the process of learning how to do mitre cuts with the hand saw and then I learned how to back-mitre to make my joints neat and tight. Before that I learned how to find studs and use a nail-set to get those finish nails below the surface without denting up the wood.

Nowadays it burns me up to see guys slice a couple 45's and calk it after they nail..ahem.. staple it to the wall.
 
#26 · (Edited)
For those of you who have never seen a Super Sawcat:
Circular saw Tool

Mine were all 8 1/4" models.

Back when I bought them, they were in the range of $400 bucks...about double the everyday saw. I had one in each van tool sets...four. In todays money, that's about $800 each. They were the proto type of the current circular saw layout, way ahead of their time. They had great power, a huge aircraft alum base, & that could be zero'd in to great parallel acuracy.

At that $400 rate, I can easily justify the green saw pricing. ;)
Joe

BTW,
I finally found an avitar worthy of me!
 
#29 ·
For those of you who have never seen a Super Sawcat:
View attachment 87930
Mine were all 8 1/4" models.

Back when I bought them, they were in the range of $400 bucks...about double the everyday saw. I had one in each van tool sets...four. In todays money, that's about $800 each. They were the proto type of the current circular saw layout, way ahead of their time. They had great power, a huge aircraft alum base, & that could be zero'd in to great parallel acuracy.

At that $400 rate, I can easily justify the green saw pricing. ;)
Joe

BTW,
I finally found an avitar worthy of me!
I think one problem with this thread is that people are looking at a Western manufactured tool, and comparing with Eastern prices. Festool cost a lot more up front than Chinese tools. That is true. Is that unexpected? If the Super SawCat were made today, and in the U.S., how much would it cost? Tool prices 30 years ago, compared to wages, were a lot higher than they are today. They were considered an investment. What we are paying for the Festool might not have seemed that unreasonable back then. At that time we were mostly comparing to American and European made tools.

I agree with everybody that says that it's the person behind that tool that counts. Some of the best examples of construction were built entirely with hand tools. Mouldings were even made with wooden moulding planes. The level of true craftsmanship was unreal. The flip side of that was that very few people could afford it. To bring the price of design down, we now deal with mass production in materials, and for most projects, we need to do production type work. I'm not saying poor quality, but definitely not at the same level. To compensate for the need for speed, we purchase tools that allow us to be more efficient. With time being increasingly valuable, a few minutes here and a few minutes there start to add up.
 
#32 ·
You are barking up the wrong tree here.

It's like saying those guys with those new fangled electric tools are sub par because I have a hand saw.

I don't need practice, I am very good at what I do. What I do need/want is to be able to do it quicker, maybe even a little better and get done with the project sooner.

Damn, that probably means I can make better money too.

You keep lighting fires with a bow and a rope, I will use my lighter.
 
#43 ·
BC I try not to have that view at all but guys like WC prove a point I never mentioned to not offend anyone. The elitist as WC mentioned are NOT ALL but usually the ones that show up heavily armored for the job but only have the skill level of an apprentice & frown upon anyone else who doesn't own the type of tool they have. I won't mention my friend I made today any more because his feathers are already ruffled. Some of these guys may be good carpenters but their personality stinks & most of it is because of their mentality they get when owning the best. Accusing me of being jealous because I may not have the same tool you have is very childish, you might as well sing na na na na naaaaa na. Like I said before I'm a very happy man, been successful, love what I do, have a very lovely wife of over 40 years, 2 grown daughters, 19 year old son at home, 4 grandsons, & believe it or not all the tools I would want. A second thought I may buy a new truck this year because my 1992 Dodge B250 long bed van with over 450,000 miles is almost ready to be put to rest :clap:
 
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