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Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?

 
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Old 06-07-2015, 02:52 PM   #21
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


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Nothing wrong with a track saw and the green in general. Work great on additions, baths ect. The trim job Spencer appears to be on is not a small to medium size job. The added gyrations of Clamping and holding and the limitations of small pcs with track saws, power planes ... are a pain in the arse compared to: hit a switch, run the board/molding thru, maybe one more time and done. Especially coupled with a good table saw. Reality, imho, it's about efficiency on large higher end trim jobs for builders. Not the most elegant solution.

Tote'n around an 80#-200#lbs jionter for smaller jobs is not efficient, both in cost and energy to move it around. But if you're gonna live at a job, like spencer's above, for a 3-4weeks doing finish carpentry - sure is sweet to have a jionter set up.
Exactly. I need to get as close to perfection in the most efficient way possible. Sure I could do it with the track saw but you can't beat running stock through a jointer for speed. Problem is I need a decent sized one.

Long story but the trim guy who brought me on the job ended up getting let go because he didn't show up and was basically playing "trim broker" but not running the job. I ended up working out a deal with them to stay on the job last week and I'm getting over $20/hr more than they pay their normal guys for custom work. They see the quality but I need to be able to continue show them the efficiency in the high hourly rate on this custom stuff. They have already made comments about how they like my speed, I need to make it happen on whatever gets thrown at me going forward.

Like you said, they are builders, they don't care about perfection, its about perfectly acceptable which translates to value and efficiency. Personally, I think you can have the best of both worlds, its just a matter of being properly equipped and using the best techniques and methods.

The track saw is a great option that I know I will use on longer stock. I may look into a larger jointer unit, one that would work good for shop use but could also be brought on site and run off a cord...
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Old 06-07-2015, 02:54 PM   #22
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


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Originally Posted by m2akita View Post
If going with a bench top jointer what about making some in-feed and out-feed tables? Guess you would have to adjust the in-feed table every time you adjusted the cut. Could mount the jointer on one of these portable stands with wheels so one guy could move it around themselves.

What about a router table with a straight bit? Just offset the in-feed and out-feed fences a little.

Just free thinking here. I have no real experience with a jointer.
It would be more of a pain that it would be worth to try and rig up some kind of longer table.

I have an incra router table and fence but the issue would be the same, not a long enough fence to do any meaningful straightening on longer boards.
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Old 06-07-2015, 03:06 PM   #23
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


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You should t be getting any saw marks on the track saw spence if you are using the right blade. Mine are like glass after using the track saw. Got rid of my jointer awhile back as really didn't use it enough. If you want it extra smooth then get the 850 and after you gone over with the TS hit it with the 850 to get desired finish.
What blade would you recommend? I have some white oak beams that I'm going to have to make that will be to long for a jointer anyway. I was going to try get a couple of tenryu, seems to me like they are a better value that festool's blades.
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Old 06-07-2015, 04:49 PM   #24
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


Long straight edged boards are not made on a jointer (i have had numerous jointers one was over 9 feet in length) and the reality is that any board over 12' is too hard to manage and your effort will be futile. 8 foot long tables are about perfect and the only part that matters is the table right after the cutter head.

Order your stock correctly, have the mill straight line it. A good table saw to rip to width with the right blade will leave very little to clean up. Quick block sand or a quick pass wth a plane will take care of it. On site my 10 foot rail and ts55 works better then any job site saw you try to feed it through.

You can let things hang past and flush trim with a router or with an offset bearing trim bit.

I once thought there was a need for a jointer on site, but soon realized it was not really needed.
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Old 06-07-2015, 05:43 PM   #25
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


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Long straight edged boards are not made on a jointer (i have had numerous jointers one was over 9 feet in length) and the reality is that any board over 12' is too hard to manage and your effort will be futile. 8 foot long tables are about perfect and the only part that matters is the table right after the cutter head.

Order your stock correctly, have the mill straight line it. A good table saw to rip to width with the right blade will leave very little to clean up. Quick block sand or a quick pass wth a plane will take care of it. On site my 10 foot rail and ts55 works better then any job site saw you try to feed it through.

You can let things hang past and flush trim with a router or with an offset bearing trim bit.

I once thought there was a need for a jointer on site, but soon realized it was not really needed.

It seems like at least half the boards end up getting a nasty bow when you rip them and release the grain tension.

In the millroom when I would make my stiles and rails so that if I needed 2" I would rip the boards at 2-1/4 so the tension would release and the board could do its thing. Run through the jointer to get them straight. Run them through the table saw at a strong 2". Then run a bunch of them together vertically through the planer to remove any saw blade marks. I'd end up with a bunch of perfectly straight, perfectly parallel stock with no saw marks. It really didn't take very long either.

The fact that boards don't stay straight when ripped is the main issue I'm looking at.

I do appreciate the advice. I don't want to waste money on a jointer if I can make a track saw and table saw do the job.
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Old 06-07-2015, 05:55 PM   #26
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


I skimmed through the thread so this may have been mentioned but I feel a planer can be a great stand in for a jointer. That DeWalt is on my list for me to replace my bosses Delta that I use.
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Old 06-07-2015, 05:58 PM   #27
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


Get better stock. The only time I have issues with lumber doing that is when I don't get it from my two usual suppliers or I know it is a junk board before I start.

Buy extra stock. I bring straight material to the jobsite, if I cant the rail saw and a router will make do, much better then some rinky dink bench top jointer.

If you have no contol of the materials, its on them to either get better stuff or realize the money saved will be lost on someone dicking around with crappy lumber.
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Old 06-07-2015, 05:59 PM   #28
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


I have all the festool blades they do for the TS saws. My general rule of thumb is more teeth for ripping = smoother cut. depending on how thick that oak is the ts55 with high tooth count blade may struggle and burn the material up some.

Another option would be the CMS-GE setup as a jointer. Have not tried this my self yet but every video I seen them using it as one it looks great and it's not another tool I need to cart along as I already have it on the trailer ready to go.
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Old 06-07-2015, 07:47 PM   #29
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


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Originally Posted by WarnerConstInc. View Post
Get better stock. The only time I have issues with lumber doing that is when I don't get it from my two usual suppliers or I know it is a junk board before I start.

Buy extra stock. I bring straight material to the jobsite, if I cant the rail saw and a router will make do, much better then some rinky dink bench top jointer.

If you have no contol of the materials, its on them to either get better stuff or realize the money saved will be lost on someone dicking around with crappy lumber.
Starting off with straight stock helps when you're talking about ripping a 1x4 down to 3", but in my experience there is nothing you can do to prevent some boards from going ape chit when you rip them down the middle such as you would for rails and stiles.

I thought all the lumber in these parts comes through Frank Miller anyways. Same source, different suppliers. The project I've been working on has been supplied by home lumber with trim coming through koetter. I'm working over on the north side of wawasee.
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Old 06-07-2015, 08:04 PM   #30
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


I rip 8/4 QSWO with the TS-55 and a sharp 48 tooth blade.

I've used a jobsite jointer long ago. The results I get with the TS 55 is far better than what I got with the jointer.

I have a process for doing rails and stiles. Can cut them faster and more accurately with the TS tan I can with a table saw.

8/4 QSWO and a few mahogany strips. All ripped with the TS-55.

Tom
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Benchtop Jointers for Site Work?-img_1991.jpg   Benchtop Jointers for Site Work?-img_2001.jpg   Benchtop Jointers for Site Work?-img_2007.jpg   Benchtop Jointers for Site Work?-img_1915.jpg  
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Old 06-07-2015, 08:17 PM   #31
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


My lumber comes out of michigan.

Good lumber will rarely have tension issues after being ripped.

Nothing wastes more time then having to straighten lumber you already paid to have one edge ripped.

There are a few woods that can be problematic, but properly dried and handled domestics should not be. 1 in 10 boards may end up with a slight crown after ripping especially if it was a wide grained flat sawn board.

I rarely have to take a rip to the jointer to straighten it out before I cut it up again.
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Old 06-07-2015, 08:24 PM   #32
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


Helps if they are straight after you're done
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Old 06-07-2015, 08:29 PM   #33
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


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Helps if they are straight after you're done

They are straight, I don't take great pictures. I also don't doctor them or edit my videos. I put the one in the middle so you can see how the edge was at the far end. That edge is straight lined until the cut got to the end where there was nothing to cut.

Your line is not on the end points appears farther off at the far end when I expand it.

Tom

Last edited by tjbnwi; 06-07-2015 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 06-08-2015, 05:26 AM   #34
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


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They are straight, I don't take great pictures. I also don't doctor them or edit my videos. I put the one in the middle so you can see how the edge was at the far end. That edge is straight lined until the cut got to the end where there was nothing to cut.

Your line is not on the end points appears farther off at the far end when I expand it.

Tom

The camera lens looks like it's adding a bit of distortion too which ain't helping.
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Old 06-08-2015, 06:37 AM   #35
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


Ansel Adams I'm not, damn near the polar opposite.

Tom

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Old 06-08-2015, 06:59 AM   #36
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


I'm with both Spencer and Warner on this one. Good lumber shouldn't be case hardened or have other stress issues from drying. In reality, I get a lot of lumber that has stress problems.

I'm not using Festool, just a guide and circ saw. I've used both a bench plane and a power hand plane. First I cut the material to get it straight, then I'm planing the edge for final clean up.

The bench plane requires a lot of room for infeed and outfeed, and long stuff is impossible to get jointed. With the power planer, all I need is a 16' clear area (or whatever for maximum length). No awkward handling to feed the material.

If you can do it in one pass with just a track saw, go for it.
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Old 06-08-2015, 08:21 AM   #37
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


For the bigger custom jobs we used to bring an Inca 570 combo jointer planer machine onsite. It really was the perfect onsite machine because it was mostly aluminum and only weighed 120lbs, had decent table lengths, and was precise like a swiss watch. Needed 20a 220 so it was only on the larger jobs, but the machine was a joy to use. Haven't seen an Inca machine in probably 15 years now. Doubt they are still made.
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Old 06-08-2015, 08:59 AM   #38
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


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The camera lens looks like it's adding a bit of distortion too which ain't helping.
Lens distortion would be consistent across all three boards. First thing that was considered.

tjbnwi - If you feel it's straight for where it's being used; it's straight. It's your project and you know what it needs to be.

What I see is a very typical bow and crook at the far end of the middle board from release of internal tensions after ripping. Exactly what a jionter is made to remove. I see irony in the picture, given the topic here.

Also Ironic, use the block plane in the field far more than the power plane. Jionters have a place on large top end trim jobs, they are not a requirement. Whole chit load of ways to rip boards and clean them up
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Old 06-08-2015, 10:03 AM   #39
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


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I'm with both Spencer and Warner on this one. Good lumber shouldn't be case hardened or have other stress issues from drying. In reality, I get a lot of lumber that has stress problems.

I'm not using Festool, just a guide and circ saw. I've used both a bench plane and a power hand plane. First I cut the material to get it straight, then I'm planing the edge for final clean up.

The bench plane requires a lot of room for infeed and outfeed, and long stuff is impossible to get jointed. With the power planer, all I need is a 16' clear area (or whatever for maximum length). No awkward handling to feed the material.

If you can do it in one pass with just a track saw, go for it.
I was under the impression that grain tension does not come from drying but rather the way the tree grows. I always understood it to come from areas of the tree that have stress due to supporting branches and what not, thats why we get figure in certain areas, its the way the tree grows to make itself stronger.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, I didn't know it had much of anything to do with drying.

Once I was using my log splitter, splitting in the horizontal position. I dropped the lever down to split a piece of round limb that could not have been more than 6 inches in diameter. The machine started to bog down and all of the sudden....bamm......the thing exploded into two pieces hitting me in the family jewels with so much power it dropped me to the ground. It was nuts (no pun intended)...some crazy kind of grain tension in that piece.
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Old 06-08-2015, 10:59 AM   #40
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Re: Benchtop Jointers For Site Work?


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I was under the impression that grain tension does not come from drying but rather the way the tree grows.
I'd add....
Drying is not the source. Drying does add tension after cutting. Amplifying (lack of abetter term) the the tension effects of grain structure from growth.

At the highest levels ideally you rip oversize and then take material off in a balanced way. So the board has uniform tension and will have minimal drying effects. The suppliers around here that straight line, just run it through the machine and quite often the boards, as they dry, crown and twist. Not a balanced straight line, nor is that the norm. And hasn't been for many decades.

If Warner gets "good" wood he's doing more than just buying from a supplier or the supplier has an old guy who knows how to do it right. Most likely he picks through or does favors to have someone pick through the stock for the best pcs.

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