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Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!

 
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Old 02-16-2015, 06:52 AM   #41
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


Quote:
Originally Posted by skoronesa View Post
It is a problem in other types. What I have seen on both sizes of packs tells me they are not the same cells. The underlying chemistry may be the same but that doesn't mean the construction is exactly the same.



The main issue, to get back to the thread topic, is really that the control board on makita packs only draws from one cell. This can cause the cells to have different voltages and the charger bricks it because this can be dangerous. The "star protection" is annoying but understandable.



I am going to stick with my big generics unless they show me they aren't reliable. The same goes for my nicd tools too.

No it's not a problem with other cells as they don't explode like Lithium does when a charge is put into the cell in a reverse state. that's the whole point of cell me monitoring in the new lithium packs. A Ni-Cd and Ni-Mh will charge safely from nothing so no need for safety features.

The 1.5ah and 3.0ah packs both use Sony 18650 cells either in a 5S1P configuration in the 1.5ah or a 5S2P configuration in the 3.0ah.

They are the same cell type I use in my flashlight.

Also the star has nothing to do with charging. Star protection is a system in place on the tool it's self and not every tool has it. When a LXT pack is connected to a star tool it has features like low voltage cut off, over amp cut off and over temp cut off. This is nothing to do with charging.
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Old 02-16-2015, 07:20 AM   #42
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


My Makita tools just sit in the shop. I've gone through all the Makita batteries I had. I start to buy more, then I just stop and wonder why I'm putting myself through it again.

I have heard you can use the old chargers on the new batteries. When the new chargers say the battery pack is dead, guys will put them in an old charger and it charges them. Just what I've heard. I don't have an old charger.
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Old 02-16-2015, 07:35 AM   #43
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


I have the oldest LXT charger made and that's not the case. If you put the battery in the charger I think it's 5x when it's too discharged it will flag the battery as a dud on all chargers.

The only way to fix this after its happened is take the discharged cell out and solder a new one in. There's plenty of cells available online or use a cell from a old pack.

I also heard a trick that freezing the battery before charging will help it get enough juice to bring the battery's up above cut off voltage. Not sure this would work either as the charger won't charge a pack when it's too cold.


I have only had 3 go bad but I keep mine topped up after each use.
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Old 02-21-2015, 01:47 PM   #44
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


"No it's not a problem with other cells as they don't explode like Lithium does when a charge is put into the cell in a reverse state. that's the whole point of cell me monitoring in the new lithium packs. A Ni-Cd and Ni-Mh will charge safely from nothing so no need for safety features."

-Just because they don't explode doesn't mean it's not an issue. Cells drawn too low are subject to this type of damage.


"The 1.5ah and 3.0ah packs both use Sony 18650 cells either in a 5S1P configuration in the 1.5ah or a 5S2P configuration in the 3.0ah."

-18650 is a cell size and does not indicate chemistry, much less subtle differences that would affect discharge and charge rates. The configuration is either 5 cells in series or 2 sets of 5 cells in series then wired in parallel.


"They are the same cell type I use in my flashlight."

-If you really want to know about lithiums, go to candle power forums, just prepare your self.


"Also the star has nothing to do with charging."

-The "star protection" has everything to do with charging. When cells are put in parallel charge and discharge rates increase. Don't feel insulted, I am sure you understand basic wiring and electrical, I am just being thorough.


"Star protection is a system in place on the tool it's self and not every tool has it."

-Other than the electrical resistance of the tool's circuit, the tools have no such protection, at least not the "star" tools I have disassembled. And correct, not all tools use the same amount of current so some may or may not be used with the "star" batteries which don't support the higher discharge rates.


"When a LXT pack is connected to a star tool it has features like low voltage cut off, over amp cut off and over temp cut off. This is nothing to do with charging."

-The protection circuit is in the battery pack itself. Low voltage, high draw, and over/under-temp are all controlled in the pack itself. The temperature sensor and individual balancing wires are all pinned out on the little yellow connector. The circuit in the battery keeps count of charge and discharge cycles. A charger may stop charging the battery if the circuit lists a certain number of cycles or if a cell has a voltage that is below a certain point and thus may be damaged. The battery’s protection circuit would not let the battery accept too much current.


"I have the oldest LXT charger made and that's not the case. If you put the battery in the charger I think it's 5x when it's too discharged it will flag the battery as a dud on all chargers.

The only way to fix this after its happened is take the discharged cell out and solder a new one in. There's plenty of cells available online or use a cell from a old pack."

-There must be some sort of write only memory which keeps track of the cycles and whether or not a cell has been drawn down to low. You would have to reset this in order to charge it even if you replaced the defective cell. I have read accounts of people trying to replace cells in packs and have yet to read one that succeeded, please share with me any info you have found on successful pack rebuilds.


"I also heard a trick that freezing the battery before charging will help it get enough juice to bring the battery's up above cut off voltage. Not sure this would work either as the charger won't charge a pack when it's too cold."

-We used to put our dead alkaline batteries in the freezer and when we tried them again they would work for a bit. Really you are just giving the chemicals in the battery time to react before you use them again. The cold actually inhibits the reaction but mentally you wouldn't think giving them a break would work if you did something as simple as let them sit in a drawer for a couple days. I mean, if you freeze them, something has to happen right? lolz.

However this may or may not be the case with the lions: http://bit.ly/1AfKkf4


"I have only had 3 go bad but I keep mine topped up after each use."

-Yes, the best thing you can do is keep them charged. When we take lunch we throw ours on the chargers whether they are empty or not. Changing out a pack before it's totally empty is a good idea too. And if we have power available we use the corded sawzall, most cordless ones suck anyway. I do love my buddies cordless bandsaw though, that thing is tits.
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Old 02-21-2015, 02:08 PM   #45
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


For an independent opinion of the state of charge [SOC] of the battery measure its voltage, then look up what voltage to expect vs SOC for the particular battery technology.
This test is not foolproof. For more info you need a homemade or bought load resistor.
Charging may be complex but discharge should still follow simple rules.

And with resistors you can trickle charge these things from a car battery.

If somebody's posted the schematics for these things you'll have additional help in reverse-engineering these intelligent chargers and intelligent battery packs.

It depends on what your time is worth, and correctly interpreting your test results.

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Old 02-21-2015, 02:27 PM   #46
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


Quote:
Originally Posted by skoronesa View Post
"No it's not a problem with other cells as they don't explode like Lithium does when a charge is put into the cell in a reverse state. that's the whole point of cell me monitoring in the new lithium packs. A Ni-Cd and Ni-Mh will charge safely from nothing so no need for safety features."

-Just because they don't explode doesn't mean it's not an issue. Cells drawn too low are subject to this type of damage.

No its not an issue. Whats issue is caused from charging a Ni-Cd or Ni-MH from flat. Please explain. Which is why so many people can pull a 10year old flat Ni-cd out and put it on a charger and it charges.


"The 1.5ah and 3.0ah packs both use Sony 18650 cells either in a 5S1P configuration in the 1.5ah or a 5S2P configuration in the 3.0ah."

-18650 is a cell size and does not indicate chemistry, much less subtle differences that would affect discharge and charge rates. The configuration is either 5 cells in series or 2 sets of 5 cells in series then wired in parallel.

I didnt say it indicates chemistry but if you want me to be exact they use the Konion LiMn cells and they are the same cells between each pack but half the amount of cells. which gives you either 3.0ah or 1.5ah


"They are the same cell type I use in my flashlight."

-If you really want to know about lithiums, go to candle power forums, just prepare your self.

I have been a member of CPF for over 8 years and a member of ES for over 6 years. Plus been into RC for over 20 years.

"Also the star has nothing to do with charging."

-The "star protection" has everything to do with charging. When cells are put in parallel charge and discharge rates increase. Don't feel insulted, I am sure you understand basic wiring and electrical, I am just being thorough.

Again it has nothing to do with the charging. The star system is a system that lets the tools and the battery comnucate with each other. It has nothing to do with the charger and the battery. Also im not insulted. Just trying to teach you about what you know nothing about

http://makitatools.com/en-us/Modules/Tools/LXTAdvantage/StarProtection.aspx


"Star protection is a system in place on the tool it's self and not every tool has it."

-Other than the electrical resistance of the tool's circuit, the tools have no such protection, at least not the "star" tools I have disassembled. And correct, not all tools use the same amount of current so some may or may not be used with the "star" batteries which don't support the higher discharge rates.

That's not what i said above. Star system is a system that lets the tool and battery communicate. When these 2 tools are put together the system works. When the star battery is put into a non star tool the system does not work.



"When a LXT pack is connected to a star tool it has features like low voltage cut off, over amp cut off and over temp cut off. This is nothing to do with charging."

-The protection circuit is in the battery pack itself. Low voltage, high draw, and over/under-temp are all controlled in the pack itself. The temperature sensor and individual balancing wires are all pinned out on the little yellow connector. The circuit in the battery keeps count of charge and discharge cycles. A charger may stop charging the battery if the circuit lists a certain number of cycles or if a cell has a voltage that is below a certain point and thus may be damaged. The battery’s protection circuit would not let the battery accept too much current.

Again star system has nothing to do with charging. Its the charger that supply's the current to the packs. Weather it be a C1 charge rate or a C10 charge rate. The battery cant control the charging current.


"I have the oldest LXT charger made and that's not the case. If you put the battery in the charger I think it's 5x when it's too discharged it will flag the battery as a dud on all chargers.

The only way to fix this after its happened is take the discharged cell out and solder a new one in. There's plenty of cells available online or use a cell from a old pack."

-There must be some sort of write only memory which keeps track of the cycles and whether or not a cell has been drawn down to low. You would have to reset this in order to charge it even if you replaced the defective cell. I have read accounts of people trying to replace cells in packs and have yet to read one that succeeded, please share with me any info you have found on successful pack rebuilds.

ES has had numerous people swap out cells and get packs working again. I my self have never bothered to try it. Its not worth my time. But it has to be done before the battery gets locked out by the charger


"I also heard a trick that freezing the battery before charging will help it get enough juice to bring the battery's up above cut off voltage. Not sure this would work either as the charger won't charge a pack when it's too cold."

-We used to put our dead alkaline batteries in the freezer and when we tried them again they would work for a bit. Really you are just giving the chemicals in the battery time to react before you use them again. The cold actually inhibits the reaction but mentally you wouldn't think giving them a break would work if you did something as simple as let them sit in a drawer for a couple days. I mean, if you freeze them, something has to happen right? lolz.

However this may or may not be the case with the lions: http://bit.ly/1AfKkf4


"I have only had 3 go bad but I keep mine topped up after each use."

-Yes, the best thing you can do is keep them charged. When we take lunch we throw ours on the chargers whether they are empty or not. Changing out a pack before it's totally empty is a good idea too. And if we have power available we use the corded sawzall, most cordless ones suck anyway. I do love my buddies cordless bandsaw though, that thing is tits.

Ok anything else you want to be wrong on
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Old 02-21-2015, 03:35 PM   #47
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


"The 1.5ah and 3.0ah packs both use Sony 18650 cells either in a 5S1P configuration in the 1.5ah or a 5S2P configuration in the 3.0ah."

-18650 is a cell size and does not indicate chemistry, much less subtle differences that would affect discharge and charge rates. The configuration is either 5 cells in series or 2 sets of 5 cells in series then wired in parallel.

I didnt say it indicates chemistry but if you want me to be exact they use the Konion LiMn cells and they are the same cells between each pack but half the amount of cells. which gives you either 3.0ah or 1.5ah

That still isn't exact, all you have given me is a manufacturers name. What makes you so sure they are the same? part numbers on cells you haven't even seen?




-The "star protection" has everything to do with charging. When cells are put in parallel charge and discharge rates increase. Don't feel insulted, I am sure you understand basic wiring and electrical, I am just being thorough.

Again it has nothing to do with the charging. The star system is a system that lets the tools and the battery comnucate with each other. It has nothing to do with the charger and the battery. Also im not insulted. Just trying to teach you about what you know nothing about

http://makitatools.com/en-us/Modules/Tools/LXTAdvantage/StarProtection.aspx


"Star protection is a system in place on the tool it's self and not every tool has it."

-Other than the electrical resistance of the tool's circuit, the tools have no such protection, at least not the "star" tools I have disassembled. And correct, not all tools use the same amount of current so some may or may not be used with the "star" batteries which don't support the higher discharge rates.

That's not what i said above. Star system is a system that lets the tool and battery communicate. When these 2 tools are put together the system works. When the star battery is put into a non star tool the system does not work.


You are referencing a press release/promotional advertising? There is nothin gthe tool to communicate with the battery. Please show me actual evidence that supports this.





ES has had numerous people swap out cells and get packs working again. I my self have never bothered to try it. Its not worth my time. But it has to be done before the battery gets locked out by the charger

Again, where's the link to this evidence? I have a buddy with a ton of old makita batteries and I would love to fix them if it's worth it.





Again star system has nothing to do with charging. Its the charger that supply's the current to the packs. Weather it be a C1 charge rate or a C10 charge rate. The battery cant control the charging current.

If a battery has a circuit to shut off supply of current when too much is drawn what makes you think it can't work the other way? Mind you it need not, the charger could shut off supply. I have seen cell phones not accept a charge when the data line value isn't set correctly.


Ok anything else you want to be wrong on

You still have yet to show me anything other than a press release and a manufacturers name. Please, prove me wrong, with evidence next time. Like pictures of an open tool and this protection circuit you claim talks to the battery.
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Old 02-21-2015, 03:57 PM   #48
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


Quote:
Originally Posted by skoronesa View Post
"The 1.5ah and 3.0ah packs both use Sony 18650 cells either in a 5S1P configuration in the 1.5ah or a 5S2P configuration in the 3.0ah."

-18650 is a cell size and does not indicate chemistry, much less subtle differences that would affect discharge and charge rates. The configuration is either 5 cells in series or 2 sets of 5 cells in series then wired in parallel.

I didnt say it indicates chemistry but if you want me to be exact they use the Konion LiMn cells and they are the same cells between each pack but half the amount of cells. which gives you either 3.0ah or 1.5ah

That still isn't exact, all you have given me is a manufacturers name. What makes you so sure they are the same? part numbers on cells you haven't even seen?

Who said i have not seen the cells. The part numbers for the cells are available online, they are sold every from ebay to sonys site. You can find hundreds on sites selling the packs ready to drop into the packs. What exactly makes you think your right and im wrong? You have proved you know nothing about whats even in the packs. Yet i have supplied battery brand, battery style, Battery model and battery chemistry. Its about time you stared backing up what you say with some kind of facts.




-The "star protection" has everything to do with charging. When cells are put in parallel charge and discharge rates increase. Don't feel insulted, I am sure you understand basic wiring and electrical, I am just being thorough.

Again it has nothing to do with the charging. The star system is a system that lets the tools and the battery comnucate with each other. It has nothing to do with the charger and the battery. Also im not insulted. Just trying to teach you about what you know nothing about

http://makitatools.com/en-us/Modules/Tools/LXTAdvantage/StarProtection.aspx


"Star protection is a system in place on the tool it's self and not every tool has it."

-Other than the electrical resistance of the tool's circuit, the tools have no such protection, at least not the "star" tools I have disassembled. And correct, not all tools use the same amount of current so some may or may not be used with the "star" batteries which don't support the higher discharge rates.

That's not what i said above. Star system is a system that lets the tool and battery communicate. When these 2 tools are put together the system works. When the star battery is put into a non star tool the system does not work.


You are referencing a press release/promotional advertising? There is nothin gthe tool to communicate with the battery. Please show me actual evidence that supports this.



No its not a press release. Its directly form Makitas site from their LXT page showing what Star protection does. But again if you are so sure im wrong supply some kind of proof as i have.


[/COLOR]ES has had numerous people swap out cells and get packs working again. I my self have never bothered to try it. Its not worth my time. But it has to be done before the battery gets locked out by the charger

Again, where's the link to this evidence? I have a buddy with a ton of old makita batteries and I would love to fix them if it's worth it.

Well you think your so cleaver then fix them But a google search is your friend.

Here's a starter to get you going. There's plenty more out there.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...-LXT-batteries[/COLOR]



Again star system has nothing to do with charging. Its the charger that supply's the current to the packs. Weather it be a C1 charge rate or a C10 charge rate. The battery cant control the charging current.

If a battery has a circuit to shut off supply of current when too much is drawn what makes you think it can't work the other way? Mind you it need not, the charger could shut off supply. I have seen cell phones not accept a charge when the data line value isn't set correctly.


Ok anything else you want to be wrong on

You still have yet to show me anything other than a press release and a manufacturers name. Please, prove me wrong, with evidence next time. Like pictures of an open tool and this protection circuit you claim talks to the battery.
Again im the only one showing anything to back up what they are saying. I have shown you so far that i know vastly more about this than you do yet you have nothing to back up what your saying yet you still think you are right. Makita say you are wrong, Sony say you are wrong, ES says you are wrong and CPF says you are wrong.

You aren't a iPhone user my any chance lol?
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Old 02-21-2015, 04:43 PM   #49
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


That is a picture of a "star protection" drill. The only thing more complicated than the variable switch is the mosfet under the motor. it's gate threshold is 4v So I assume it's used to stop the drill from drawing current at a voltage too low to turn the motor and draining the battery.

This is the data sheet for the part number:
http://www.alldatasheet.com/datashee...FP3206PBF.html

I threw in a picture of my rotary impact as well. It has a switch with an integrated mosfet.

Both of theses tools have "star protection".
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Another makita battery bites the dust!-imag0219.jpg   Another makita battery bites the dust!-imag0220.jpg  
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Old 02-21-2015, 04:44 PM   #50
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


Both of those have the yellow wire going into the switch and it is probably hooked up to a thermocouple because that switch dissipates a good amount of heat and would get too hot before the motor. The only other wires are for the led lights.
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Old 02-21-2015, 04:46 PM   #51
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


And no, I have great disdain for iphones, mostly their lack of sd card slots. I have a droid incredible, the first version. I got it for 18$ it is the second one I have had. Before my incredibles I had a lot of razrs.
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Old 02-21-2015, 05:01 PM   #52
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


The key take away from those pictures is the absence of any form of communication other than what might be a thermocouple. One sensor. For heat. I don't call that communication.
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Old 02-21-2015, 05:39 PM   #53
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


Quote:
Originally Posted by skoronesa View Post
The key take away from those pictures is the absence of any form of communication other than what might be a thermocouple. One sensor. For heat. I don't call that communication.

Well again until you can prove with proof makita wrong about their own design it's nothing but make believe.

upto yet you still giving me no proof of star battery's controlling charge current. Yet makita say it has nothing to do with charging. I also know it has nothing to do with charging as I know people who have charged these packs at 10c on RC chargers.

No proof that the cells are not the same in these packs. Yet part numbers are exactly the same for replacement cells

At least have something to back up what your saying.
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Old 02-21-2015, 08:13 PM   #54
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


"Well again until you can prove with proof makita wrong about their own design it's nothing but make believe"
^^Your question^^

Just to get this straight, your statement^^ refers to me saying that there is no communication and you saying there is after having read the makita page which says:

"Makita’s STAR Protection Computer Controls™ allow the battery and tool to communicate and protect your tool and battery from overload by cutting power when put under abnormally high current draw."
^^Makitas lie^^

They say outright that the tool and battery communicate to "protect your tool and battery from overload by cutting power..."

I am arguing that the tool is "dumb" and does not communicate. That the battery has it's own circuit board which is "smart" and that the battery itself cuts power based on the current being transferred.
^^My first argument^^

The reason I am saying this and believe that it is important, is that makita is trying to get people to believe they have made a major change to their batteries to stop them failing in droves. Even the "star" batteries fail just as often as they did before the "star protection" was implemented.

I have opened, and photographed two "star protection tools and shown that there is no device in them capable of communication with the battery nor does the tool or connector have the necessary wires for said communication. With the exception of a thermocouple which is neither novel or different from the original failing batteries.
^^My evidence for #1^^




"upto yet you still giving me no proof of star battery's controlling charge current."

""When a LXT pack is connected to a star tool it has features like low voltage cut off, over amp cut off and over temp cut off. This is nothing to do with charging."

-The protection circuit is in the battery pack itself. Low voltage, high draw, and over/under-temp are all controlled in the pack itself. The temperature sensor and individual balancing wires are all pinned out on the little yellow connector. The circuit in the battery keeps count of charge and discharge cycles. A charger may stop charging the battery if the circuit lists a certain number of cycles or if a cell has a voltage that is below a certain point and thus may be damaged. The battery’s protection circuit would not let the battery accept too much current."
^^My 2nd argument^^


I made a postulation that the battery could limit or stop the charge current. This wasn't a statment of fact but guess and I was wrong. Either way my Factual claim was "The circuit in the battery keeps count of charge and discharge cycles. A charger may stop charging the battery if the circuit lists a certain number of cycles or if a cell has a voltage that is below a certain point and thus may be damaged." I made this claim as I see it as the crux of the problem. For good reason charge and discharge cycles are kept track of and the charger will not charge a battery that has seen "x" number of cycles on the assumption that the battery will soon fail thereafter. That is fine and dandy. This is only one of a couple decisions the charger makes. The problem is when the charger sees a cell that is at a significantly lower voltage which is caused by the control circuit drawing from only one cell.

I had read a forum thread where an individual disassembled a dead makita battery pack and did testing. He even went so far as to put an oscilliscope to the thing. He found that the control circuitry only drew from one cell causing the cell to have a significantly lower voltage if it sat idle for some time. I have not been able to find that thread but have found this: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?280754-Makita-18V-LXT-batteries
Look at post number 6 and 7.
"-There must be some sort of write only memory which keeps track of the cycles and whether or not a cell has been drawn down to low. You would have to reset this in order to charge it even if you replaced the defective cell. I have read accounts of people trying to replace cells in packs and have yet to read one that succeeded, please share with me any info you have found on successful pack rebuilds.

ES has had numerous people swap out cells and get packs working again. I my self have never bothered to try it. Its not worth my time. But it has to be done before the battery gets locked out by the charger." I had read the first thread before someone had rebuilt one of these and my claim was that you couldn't revive a pack once the controller had bricked it, not that a pack couldn't be rebuilt at all.
^^My evidence for #2^^

"No proof that the cells are not the same in these packs. Yet part numbers are exactly the same for replacement cells"
^^Your question^^

While I may not be correct as to whether there are two different types of cells in makitas various packs I brought up this option because some packs Have "star protection" and others do not. the main reason being that the 1.5ah packs can not support the same discharge rates as the 3.0ah. But I have seen 1.5ah packs that were not "star" packs and could be used in regular tools. Etiher these packs had different cells or makita hadn't begun the new "protection" until after these were produced. You still haven't given me actual part numbers or even links to disassembly photos showing the same cells in "star" and non-"star" packs. At this point either of us could be wrong here.

"
I would love to know why the charger suddenly decides my battery has had enough?"

^^Your initial question^^

"The main issue, to get back to the thread topic, is really that the control board on makita packs only draws from one cell. This can cause the cells to have different voltages and the charger bricks it because this can be dangerous. The "star protection" is annoying but understandable."

^^My response^^
I will admit that it took several posts before I actually responded to your original question and I apologize. I would like to note that your lack of knowledge in the construction of these packs is in direct contrast to your statement: "I have shown you so far that i know vastly more about this than you do..."
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Old 02-21-2015, 09:06 PM   #55
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


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Originally Posted by skoronesa View Post
"Well again until you can prove with proof makita wrong about their own design it's nothing but make believe"
^^Your question^^

Just to get this straight, your statement^^ refers to me saying that there is no communication and you saying there is after having read the makita page which says:

"Makita’s STAR Protection Computer Controls™ allow the battery and tool to communicate and protect your tool and battery from overload by cutting power when put under abnormally high current draw."
^^Makitas lie^^

Again Prove they are lying.


They say outright that the tool and battery communicate to "protect your tool and battery from overload by cutting power..."

Again prove they are lying

I am arguing that the tool is "dumb" and does not communicate. That the battery has it's own circuit board which is "smart" and that the battery itself cuts power based on the current being transferred.
^^My first argument^^
Again prove they are lying

The reason I am saying this and believe that it is important, is that makita is trying to get people to believe they have made a major change to their batteries to stop them failing in droves. Even the "star" batteries fail just as often as they did before the "star protection" was implemented.

They have made a major change. As an example the first makita packs would do nothing smart. The only tools i could get to make to shut down in a low voltage state were the radio and flashlight. The drill and impact would run them until flat. Not good for lithium cells

I have opened, and photographed two "star protection tools and shown that there is no device in them capable of communication with the battery nor does the tool or connector have the necessary wires for said communication. With the exception of a thermocouple which is neither novel or different from the original failing batteries.
^^My evidence for #1^^

Again prove Makita is wrong. Let me give you another example. My RC car motor used to communicate with my speed controller with just 2 wires. The same 2 wires the power used. I have not got into how the systems communicate but its been done a long time before makita invented the LXT range




"upto yet you still giving me no proof of star battery's controlling charge current."

""When a LXT pack is connected to a star tool it has features like low voltage cut off, over amp cut off and over temp cut off. This is nothing to do with charging."

-The protection circuit is in the battery pack itself. Low voltage, high draw, and over/under-temp are all controlled in the pack itself. The temperature sensor and individual balancing wires are all pinned out on the little yellow connector. The circuit in the battery keeps count of charge and discharge cycles. A charger may stop charging the battery if the circuit lists a certain number of cycles or if a cell has a voltage that is below a certain point and thus may be damaged. The battery’s protection circuit would not let the battery accept too much current."
^^My 2nd argument^^


I made a postulation that the battery could limit or stop the charge current. This wasn't a statment of fact but guess and I was wrong. Either way my Factual claim was "The circuit in the battery keeps count of charge and discharge cycles. A charger may stop charging the battery if the circuit lists a certain number of cycles or if a cell has a voltage that is below a certain point and thus may be damaged." I made this claim as I see it as the crux of the problem. For good reason charge and discharge cycles are kept track of and the charger will not charge a battery that has seen "x" number of cycles on the assumption that the battery will soon fail thereafter. That is fine and dandy. This is only one of a couple decisions the charger makes. The problem is when the charger sees a cell that is at a significantly lower voltage which is caused by the control circuit drawing from only one cell.

Again not true. I have had packs with well over 1500 charges which i think was their estimated lifespan. The charger will only kill a pack if the one cell has a below cut off voltage reading and you insert it into the charger 3-5 times. Cant remember exact figure but i myself have killed 3 packs due to this. I had another yesterday give me the error but its only been on charger 2x

I had read a forum thread where an individual disassembled a dead makita battery pack and did testing. He even went so far as to put an oscilliscope to the thing. He found that the control circuitry only drew from one cell causing the cell to have a significantly lower voltage if it sat idle for some time. I have not been able to find that thread but have found this:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?280754-Makita-18V-LXT-batteries
Look at post number 6 and 7.
"-There must be some sort of write only memory which keeps track of the cycles and whether or not a cell has been drawn down to low. You would have to reset this in order to charge it even if you replaced the defective cell. I have read accounts of people trying to replace cells in packs and have yet to read one that succeeded, please share with me any info you have found on successful pack rebuilds.


I already explain that if the pack is put into the charger too many times there's nothing your gonna be able to do to stop it flagging it as bad. The cell has to be changed before its flagged. Otherwise you have to use a RC charger which is hassle on a tool battery.

ES has had numerous people swap out cells and get packs working again. I my self have never bothered to try it. Its not worth my time. But it has to be done before the battery gets locked out by the charger." I had read the first thread before someone had rebuilt one of these and my claim was that you couldn't revive a pack once the controller had bricked it, not that a pack couldn't be rebuilt at all.

Seems like you back tracking on what you said. I already explained this before.
^^My evidence for #2^^

"No proof that the cells are not the same in these packs. Yet part numbers are exactly the same for replacement cells"
^^Your question^^

While I may not be correct as to whether there are two different types of cells in makitas various packs I brought up this option because some packs Have "star protection" and others do not. the main reason being that the 1.5ah packs can not support the same discharge rates as the 3.0ah. But I have seen 1.5ah packs that were not "star" packs and could be used in regular tools. Etiher these packs had different cells or makita hadn't begun the new "protection" until after these were produced. You still haven't given me actual part numbers or even links to disassembly photos showing the same cells in "star" and non-"star" packs. At this point either of us could be wrong here.

There are def different cells in makita packs. The 2ah, 4ah and 5ah packs have different cells than the 1.5ah and 3ah packs. Thats not the argument though as this is about 1.5ah and 3.0ah. Of course 1.5ah cant put out the current needed for the larger tools. I have 3.0AH packs with and without star tech installed but the ones without wont work on new tools as theres no "communication" same as some packs wont work on older tools. I my self have made the packs work on all tools by removing the tag that restricts new packs on old tools but have yet to test them properly with this setup. What i can tell you though is my new Brushless drill XPH07Z will cut off from over current but my bhp454 will not from the same pack. Now that tells me 1 of 2 things. Either the drill aint compatible with that pack or im not pulling enough current from that pack to make it cut off.


"
I would love to know why the charger suddenly decides my battery has had enough?"

^^Your initial question^^

"The main issue, to get back to the thread topic, is really that the control board on makita packs only draws from one cell. This can cause the cells to have different voltages and the charger bricks it because this can be dangerous. The "star protection" is annoying but understandable."


again star protection has absolutely noting do do with the charging of the pack. Makita packs were doing this way before star protection was even thought about. I was prob one of the first people in the US to have a failed makita pack as i bought into the LXT early and this is why i know so much about how the packs function.

^^My response^^
I will admit that it took several posts before I actually responded to your original question and I apologize. I would like to note that your lack of knowledge in the construction of these packs is in direct contrast to your statement: "I have shown you so far that i know vastly more about this than you do..."
No need to apologize. As people on here know i am a myth buster. Mainly on Apple threads and diff threads with Tom but when i know my **** i dont back down I spent a good long 3 months + looking into how i can fix these packs and learnt a lot along the way. It was one of the reason i joined endless sphere and candle power forums.
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Old 03-10-2015, 05:51 PM   #56
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


Someone gave me some makita stuff, 2 rotary impacts and a regular drill. all white, cordless, "star". they also gave me 3 batteries that won't charge.

Went on google and found these generic circuit boards: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Repair-Makit...tem2ed291f0cd#

I figure i will buy two and use the 2 good cells from one of the packs to replace the single bad cells in the other two.

All 3 batteries are the bl1815. I will report back on my success, most likely in a month or two as these will be coming from russia and will probably take some time.
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Old 03-10-2015, 05:52 PM   #57
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


If I die from exploding batteries my wife has instructions to let you guys know
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Old 03-10-2015, 05:56 PM   #58
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


60 seconds later new plan.....

kept searching and found these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/18v-1500mAh-...item2a4bf0888d

When these are only 6$ more than the bare chip i dont know if i could waste my money like that. I will either try charging one of these with a circuit from one of my generic 4.5ah's or get one of these 1.5ah's and borrow the circuit to test with the rebuilt makita packs. if they seem to hold a decent charge i will get the bare boards and fix them.
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Old 03-10-2015, 05:58 PM   #59
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


Have you seen how cheap generic 1.5ah packs are. You are better off buying them than putting in that time and money to fix packs with old cells. All them cells could have dropped below cut off voltage depending how long they been sitting.
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Old 03-10-2015, 07:20 PM   #60
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Re: Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!


yeah, i did, 60 seconds later, and i posted again stating so before you replied. i assume you opened your thing to reply before i made my second post, lolz. Kind of like when you text someone and end up having two conversations....

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