Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing - Construction - Contractor Talk

Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing

 
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Old 02-15-2009, 12:31 PM   #1
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Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


Don't ask, but I've been asked by a very good client to install a scoreboard for his town's little league organization.

It will require 3' diameter x 5' concrete footings with a W10 or W8 beam installed into the core of the footing.

At 225 lbs. each, how does one set a 15' tall beam accurately into the concrete? I was thinking of shooting in some wood blocking around each beam so we could then nail wood bracing onto the posts once vertical.

What's the best way to raise these beams? Realize that this scoreboard is about 500 feet from any road or access point so getting machinery in is going to be tough because I don't want heavy equipment traversing all the nice fields to get there. It's bad enough I have to figure out how to get 2.5 yards of concrete to the site.

Any suggestions?

Here's the specs...
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Old 02-15-2009, 01:33 PM   #2
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


There are 2 wheel hand trucks
with pneumatic tires that go
well over 300lbs capacity.
Strap one on the end, and
2 guys on the other.....

Bracing, it's been along time, but
we used a 2X6, flat in each web
to make an A tying them together
with a horizontal near the top.
Then kicked off them to plumb
in the other direction.
Clear as mud, right?


Oh, how about renting a ScootCrete?

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Old 02-15-2009, 02:13 PM   #3
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


You could pour the footings with pockets to accept the columns, and then man-handle them in and then grout.

If you go with a W8 It's going to weigh at least [email protected]'

I think I'd have to take a chance scuffing up the grass with a backhoe with this job. You could get the crete there and set the columns.
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Old 02-15-2009, 02:18 PM   #4
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


I had to do something similar once. If you are a visual person, picture:

Build a tripod out of 20 foot 2x's with an attachment point at the top. Assemble after piers are dug, use to hoist beam, then lower into hole. Place concrete, and plumb. when finished, send skinny kid up to unhook c clamp from beam.
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Old 02-15-2009, 02:45 PM   #5
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


I always used to be
the skinny kid.
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Old 02-15-2009, 05:40 PM   #6
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


use a track machine for getting and hoisting the iron up-as long as you're driving in a straight line you shouldn't have any issues with disturbing the field. Just to make it nice, you could get a bobcat style backhoe to dig the hole and a mortar pan on forks to drive the concrete from the concrete truck to the hole.
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Old 02-15-2009, 09:06 PM   #7
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


The logistics just stink on this.

The footings will have to be dug and inspected THEN, we get to come back to do the crete.
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Old 02-15-2009, 09:17 PM   #8
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


Be careful! I bid one of Daktronics' jobs a few years ago in Somerset County. The town ultimately required a real drawing by a local engineer, not one of their "suggested" drawings that came in the bid package. We included engineering, prints, soil tests, etc, because we knew that, and lost the bid to a lower bidder. The guy that did get it didn't have all of that in his bid, and it caused a big stink when he went to the town.

Plus I never understood their whacky method of setting columns. Installation would be so much easier if they did traditional j-bolts and rebar, with base plates on the columns. Standing a 15 foot long W8 or W10 on end and pouring around it is silly, if you ask me. When I called Daktronics during the bid process, they backed away from their sketches and tables, and said "you need to involve a local engineer."

Also, getting concrete over there shouldn't be a big deal as long as you get a concrete pumping guy with a line truck (not a boom).
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Old 02-15-2009, 09:58 PM   #9
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


I had a crazy thought yesterday-what iffff you took a video of the footing measurements prior to pouring as proof for the inspection process? The thought arose from a story I was telling about digging holes for a pole barn where the water table was at about 20" below the surface. Of course the holes were filled w/ water, but the sandy soil would fall in on the sides and consequently fill the bottom of the hole. Was a real pain to get them cleaned up enough for the inspector.

crazy idea, huh?
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Old 02-15-2009, 10:09 PM   #10
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


Quote:
Originally Posted by 72chevy4x4 View Post
I had a crazy thought yesterday-what iffff you took a video of the footing measurements prior to pouring as proof for the inspection process? The thought arose from a story I was telling about digging holes for a pole barn where the water table was at about 20" below the surface. Of course the holes were filled w/ water, but the sandy soil would fall in on the sides and consequently fill the bottom of the hole. Was a real pain to get them cleaned up enough for the inspector.

crazy idea, huh?
Good idea, but it wouldn't fly in the town I am working in. They are absolutely the most unaccommodating BIs there ever was. They live to make life difficult.
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Old 02-15-2009, 11:23 PM   #11
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggie67 View Post
........
Also, getting concrete over there shouldn't be a big deal as long as you get a concrete pumping guy with a line truck (not a boom).
Gee whiz.
A 4" line 500' long holds 1.68 cy.
Clean up would be a PITA.
But I agree there should be a base plate,
even if it is only resting on it, just to
spread the load.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 72chevy4x4 View Post
I had a crazy thought yesterday-what iffff you took a video of the footing measurements prior to pouring as proof for the inspection process? The thought arose from a story I was telling about digging holes for a pole barn where the water table was at about 20" below the surface. Of course the holes were filled w/ water, but the sandy soil would fall in on the sides and consequently fill the bottom of the hole. Was a real pain to get them cleaned up enough for the inspector.

crazy idea, huh?
They are supposed to be inspecting
the bearing conditions at he bottom
of the footings as well as the dimensions.
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Old 02-16-2009, 11:52 AM   #12
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


Greg, I replied to your private message. I gave all the details.

Neo, yes that's a mess. I'm never there to clean up!

I suggested to Greg to also look into renting powered buggies. We use them to get concrete across the interior of buildings. I suppose they'd work outside. They have the same tires as a large commercial lawn mower.
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Old 02-16-2009, 12:19 PM   #13
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


I get this quite regularly.

After the piers are drilled set a solid CMU block in the bottom on end, you may need two to give you a good bearing surface.

Have the excavator that drilled the hole lift the beam and place it in the hole.

Build the A frame as someone suggested to support the top and run the 2x material across the base and suppost that as well and attach to the A frame legs where they meet the ground.

Check for plumb and alignment, use the excavator as your friend to hold and move these heavy beams as needed.

Once final set is made bring in the concrete. pour slowly so as not to move the beams. Once you get about a foot above the CMU blocks it will hold fairly stable and not move. If it does move and needs adjustment during the pour have a piece of 2x handy and a sledge hammer to bump it around.

24 hours later strip the wood braces and your done.

Usually I run the steel a little long and make the final top cut after the pour. Have 4 guys on site to do this, one in the excavator, 3 on the gorund while pouring (just in case you need to adjust it, it's not a one man job)

In my area we need to weld nelson studs on the I-beam going in the ground just to secure it to the concrete.
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Old 02-16-2009, 02:58 PM   #14
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Di View Post
It will require 3' diameter x 5' concrete footings with a W10 or W8 beam installed into the core of the footing.

At 225 lbs. each, how does one set a 15' tall beam accurately into the concrete?

What's the best way to raise these beams?

Any suggestions?

..
15' tall, 225 lb. steel post dropping 5' into the ground -

You don't specify whether or not you need a footing below the post or not. If yes, try the method I detailed in my 16x24 roof thread - pour the inital footing (mix w/ wheelbarrows ) w/ U shaped rebar sticking up out of the footing.

Build a 3-sided temp support out of 2x4s above the hole - this will be used to guide posts into the correct position and stabilize them for the pour. This support will be at 6' up from the bottom of the post, you shouldn't need any additional tripod supports at the top of the posts. As long as they're left alone while concrete's curing, they should be fine.

Two guys can lift that thing, no real need for mechanical help at the hole.
Position bottom of post at edge of hole, lift up into position, using 'catch' to help you w/ final post position. If you need help lifting the top up, nail a wood ring around the top, run a 5" Ledgerlock through the end of a 2x4x10 into that ring, now you've got a lever to lift the top of the post. I don't think you'll need that though because a third of the post will be dropping into the hole as you're lifting it.

Unless you've got a big area to clean out, using a pump truck won't make much sense - as Neo said, too much will be left in the hose. Maybe rent a mixer and ferry bags out to the site. I've never seen a Georgia buggy but this sounds like a good project for one.

It's for a ball field, yes? How about enlisting some volunteer help from the high schoolers who will be using it?

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Old 02-16-2009, 06:19 PM   #15
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


I must be missing something.

Wouldn't it be easier, not to mention more maintenance friendly for the future, to treat these like highway light standards or billboard standards? Monstrous honkin' bolts embedded in the concrete, and a boltable base welded to the bottom of the poles. no? Then you adjust vertical by adjusting the nuts.
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Old 02-16-2009, 07:11 PM   #16
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


You could be over thinking this whole thing.

This is how you do what Bob (above) is talking about.

First of all, pouring standing column beams into a hole is ridiculous.

You pour the concrete base all the way up to about 4" above ground level. (both bases flat and level with each other) Now, you won't need all of that 15' length, only a little less than 10'.

You embed four 3/4" bolts (or 7/8" or 1"... your choice to feel safe) in the concrete top of each base... spaced to align with four 3/4" holes drilled in the base plates welded to each column.

There is a standard and proper way to hang those bolts in place before the concrete pour which most any of us could (and will) explain to you when its needed.

Now you run a nut most of the way onto each bolt, and shoot them level for height with one another.

You rent two 4' scaffolding sections, and build an 8' high platform between the bases. (The scaffolding can be easily moved a little for exact alignment on each of the two bases if needed)

Four guys (two could really do it) hoist one end of one of the columns up to two guys on top. 10' is not that heavy.

Together, they inch the first standing column (secured with a reasonably loose loop of rope to the scaffold top) over to the base and set the holes down on the bolts. This is much easier than it sounds, and takes less than a minute.

Run a second nut down on each bolt. The double nut setup gives you an easy way to adjust each column plumb.

When all is perfect, force stiff concrete all the way around and under both column bases, and let it set up. (Bevel off the edges so the concrete sides slope away from the metal column bases)... it sheds water this way, and looks neat, too.

Now you will have all the metal above ground where you can not only clean and paint it, but you can also very easily remove or replace the entire unit if it becomes necessary.

Go look at some light poles in grocery store parking lots. This is the way most of them are done.
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Old 02-16-2009, 07:16 PM   #17
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_cntrctr View Post
I must be missing something.

Wouldn't it be easier, not to mention more maintenance friendly for the future, to treat these like highway light standards or billboard standards? Monstrous honkin' bolts embedded in the concrete, and a boltable base welded to the bottom of the poles. no? Then you adjust vertical by adjusting the nuts.
I was thinkin' that myself. Is there a code (structural or otherwise) that says you can't use this method in NJ???
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Old 02-16-2009, 07:35 PM   #18
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


Your dealing with wind load which is why they need to be in the ground, the plate idea can work, but requires a really heavy plate (engineer spec), welding (and not a 1/4" fillet weld, something substantial) along with a special inspection on the weld, the bolts I'm guessing would be a min. of 1" and need to be 4' into the pier. Grout it up after it's set. What have you saved compared to dropping into the concrete?

Nothing, between the savings on the shorter I-beams, add the plates with drilled holes, welding, special inspection, long threaded rods, your back to square one.
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Old 02-16-2009, 07:40 PM   #19
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


Quote:
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...........
I suggested to Greg to also look into renting powered buggies. We use them to get concrete across the interior of buildings. I suppose they'd work outside. They have the same tires as a large commercial lawn mower.
That's a ScootCrete.
Two tractor wheels on the hopper and
the driver sits over the steerable wheel.
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Old 02-16-2009, 07:51 PM   #20
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Re: Embedding W10 Beam In Concrete Footing


One of the reasons those 70' light poles out on the interstate are done this way is exactly because of wind loading.

Embeded in concrete, all the wind load is applied to the side of the concrete casing... back and forth, back and forth. Not a good situation at all. Water will work its way down into all those side cracks, down alongside the columns, and you have rust potential.

The bolts, on the other hand take almost all that load in tension, not shear.

And the anchor bolts and nuts can be easily and quickly inspected, tightened, and/or replaced when and if necessary... which is usually never.

Check with your local sign companies. They put up basically the same things daily.

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