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Change Orders And/or Modifications

 
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Old 05-29-2019, 03:36 PM   #1
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Change Orders And/or Modifications


We recently put in a job quote to change out some door hardware for a commercial client. From mechanical to electrical. The initial walk through was fine, and we had two options for the hardware. We chose and quoted option A due to price and install time. Option B was similar but had a different look to the door and after talking to the GC, who we relayed all the info to they agreed. Well, as it turns out once we pulled the original hardware apart and got into it, we discovered it was a special modification to the door and an unusual lock design. Damn. Okay, so we decided to switch to option B which we would have done for the same price. But, then the client decides they really want the look of option A. That is doable but would require factory modifications and a 5 week lead time.

So, my question is how do most contractors deal with this kind of Change order or modification as far a pricing and adding to the quote? I know I've seen plumbers quote a job and then rip into a wall only to discover that the plumbing is worse or different than expected. And I've seen HVAC guys do the same; rip into a wall only to discover that something isn't right. They then go to the homeowner and have to modify the bid.

I imagine this is similar. Once we ripped into the door and frame we discovered the replacement hardware won't work, and the customer doesn't want plan B.

So, what kind of talking points do you use with the client? Would you expect them to pay the extra money because the initial option didn't work?

My thought is that I would give them option B, get the job done on time, and not change my quote. I would eat the small difference in labor and parts. But, if they really insist on option A then I would ask them to pay for it. Not to mention they have to wait 5 weeks.

At the moment we are discussing all options.

It would be nice to know how GC's deal with this as a general policy. I imagine there are a lot of things like this that happen during a remodel.
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Old 05-29-2019, 03:49 PM   #2
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Re: Change Orders And/or Modifications


Original specs?
As-builts for original doors?
"Extras are Extra"

Did you look at any of the doors, preform "due diligence"

The janitor should have a list of door hdw in use......

Old doors web site should show all options.............

You need to do a walk about if your bidding real $$$.

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Old 05-29-2019, 04:00 PM   #3
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Re: Change Orders And/or Modifications


IMO, this is on you.

You were at the job walk and decided what hardware option you were going to quote.

Should have done due diligence to insure your plan would work.

The flip side to this is if through plans/specs/addendum's you were led to believe your option would work and it didn't, then you would submit an RFI and get a change order.

Good Luck...
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Old 05-29-2019, 04:45 PM   #4
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Re: Change Orders And/or Modifications


Quote:
Originally Posted by rtztgue View Post
We recently put in a job quote to change out some door hardware for a commercial client. From mechanical to electrical. The initial walk through was fine, and we had two options for the hardware. We chose and quoted option A due to price and install time. Option B was similar but had a different look to the door and after talking to the GC, who we relayed all the info to they agreed. Well, as it turns out once we pulled the original hardware apart and got into it, we discovered it was a special modification to the door and an unusual lock design. Damn. Okay, so we decided to switch to option B which we would have done for the same price. But, then the client decides they really want the look of option A. That is doable but would require factory modifications and a 5 week lead time.

So, my question is how do most contractors deal with this kind of Change order or modification as far a pricing and adding to the quote? I know I've seen plumbers quote a job and then rip into a wall only to discover that the plumbing is worse or different than expected. And I've seen HVAC guys do the same; rip into a wall only to discover that something isn't right. They then go to the homeowner and have to modify the bid.

I imagine this is similar. Once we ripped into the door and frame we discovered the replacement hardware won't work, and the customer doesn't want plan B.

So, what kind of talking points do you use with the client? Would you expect them to pay the extra money because the initial option didn't work?

My thought is that I would give them option B, get the job done on time, and not change my quote. I would eat the small difference in labor and parts. But, if they really insist on option A then I would ask them to pay for it. Not to mention they have to wait 5 weeks.

At the moment we are discussing all options.

It would be nice to know how GC's deal with this as a general policy. I imagine there are a lot of things like this that happen during a remodel.
Finding out there was a special modification to the lock design may not have been visible during the spec/quote phase. Sounds like what's being described here...

It's a change to the original scope requiring special order and wait time... therefore a Change Order is in order... seems straight forward...

Not clear though... Are you asking HOW to do a CO?

Last edited by KAP; 05-29-2019 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 05-30-2019, 10:04 AM   #5
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Re: Change Orders And/or Modifications


I'm not asking how per se, more of standard procedures and talking points with the client. I spoke to some other re-modelers I know and they cover their bases by including lines in their contracts about unforeseen problems. That way when they open up a wall and find dry rot it's covered under a general catch-all term. I don't always put those little items in my quotes because most of my quotes are smaller and more general. People are looking for a basic estimate to repair a door or install simple hardware. Over the phone is easy. I just tell them it's about this much and give them a basic price. When they want it in writing it's a bit more difficult. If I know of a forseable problem I will put an * and then denote the exception. Unforeseen things like this are rare, but maybe I will need to add a general exception to the bottom of my quote template.

At the moment, it is becoming a moot point because the client is changing things around even more. Now, it is definitely outside the original scope of work. So, it falls squarely into a change order.
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Old 05-30-2019, 03:51 PM   #6
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Re: Change Orders And/or Modifications


You aren't acting in as least as diligent as an "average" Sub C.

Thus any GC could DENY any CO based on your failure to do an average review of conditions...none of the other bidders told the GC/owner of the actual existing conditions......Hmmm?

The biggest issue is your incompetent bid has DELAYED the job X number of days @ ***.xx $ per day including weekends, add treble damages.......

Relying on staying lucky isn't a business Plan.

Get Thee to some Business classes ASAP.

Buy a Construction business dictionary.

Get a Rabbi/Mentor to review your decisions until you are less ignorant of basic Business practice in Construction. Your are relying on your customers "kindness" to make a profit now.

You are a "Fawn" at the watering hole with no Doe or Buck watching over you.

Please Post if you are still IN business Next Year.

If I had a piece of your company, I'd be looking for a greater Fool to unload it on.
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Last edited by Fouthgeneration; 05-30-2019 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 05-30-2019, 04:14 PM   #7
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Re: Change Orders And/or Modifications


You forgot to mention that I am a self made debt free multimillionaire who has never failed in business, Jackass. Been in business 25 years, traveled the world, and about to head off to Ireland for another wonderful trip. Trolls like you are just one of the things that successful business owners like myself have to deal with.

I can also tell by your tag line stating you are an idiot and your misspelled profile name that you probably aren't smart enough to own a business let alone have enough money to own part of mine. Which is asinine anyway. I make too much money to want to take on idiot investors like you.

But, as you wish. I'll mark the date and send you a hello next year.

On second thought. Nix that. I'll just move on, forget you, and find other owners and/or managers with whom to exchange ideas on policy, repair techniques, legislation, etc...

Last edited by rtztgue; 05-30-2019 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 05-30-2019, 04:53 PM   #8
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Re: Change Orders And/or Modifications


Better Lucky then smart.

The more an opinion irritates you, the more you need to consider it....

That wealth you have now is just more to loss when someone raccoon traps you in contract you can't perform......

Your story just doesn't quite add up to your claims, see " The First Liar Never Has a Chance..."

The saddest truth would be that you aren't lying about anything.

What is up with the use of the Imperial "We"? are you a working Royal person or Sovereign Nation? Also commonly used by blame spreaders, We made a mistake, I fixed it.......

Make sure the kids have a employable skill set/education, just in case you burn up your wealth.

Pop Quiz: can you trademark a common word vs, can you trademark a misspelled word?

I as an Idiot, gave you quality advice, please DON'T take any of it.....

Say Hello to my Cousins in the Old sod.
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Old 05-30-2019, 09:03 PM   #9
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Re: Change Orders And/or Modifications


From what I've read above, there are 2 different things being discussed.

The "subsurface clause" which is in many GC's contracts address things that are not expected to be found once drywall is removed such as previous hack work, rotted framing, etc.

If someone provides a quote for items that are completely visible on a walk through with accurate plans in hand, the subsurface clause doesn't qualify IMO.
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Old 05-30-2019, 09:26 PM   #10
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Re: Change Orders And/or Modifications


I 'd review the original specs for the door & hdw, and the Plan sheet with the door schedule and hardware..
And change orders regarding any doors + as Builts.

No or few documents = much more WAG on bid/estimate

May be run the UL listing # and model # through the manufacturers catalog/website......for compatibility issues?

What good is E-data/BIM etc..., if the owner can't find out what his building is actually made out of a few years later?
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Old 05-31-2019, 05:48 PM   #11
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Re: Change Orders And/or Modifications


Change Order?? What!! This one seems cut and dry to me, you did a visual and you goofed. This was NOT hidden...you can't correlate this to plumbing and behind the walls.

You provided two option which were suppose to work. The look to me is irrelevant. The option didn't fit/work/whatever.

This one is 100% on you. Next time open the thing up, there are so many locksmiths which you would probably have bought this from they would have told you on the spot what would fit properly.

If I quote a say door replacement, I always have a disclaimer about framing, termite, rot damage. I also have a disclaimer about drywall and paint redo, unless I included it. Plumber can say well I opened the wall and the cast iron pipe have a hairline crack which no one could have seen, that's a fair change order.

What am I missing here?? Did I mis-read something?
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Old 05-31-2019, 06:30 PM   #12
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Re: Change Orders And/or Modifications


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Change Order?? What!! This one seems cut and dry to me, you did a visual and you goofed. This was NOT hidden...you can't correlate this to plumbing and behind the walls.

You provided two option which were suppose to work. The look to me is irrelevant. The option didn't fit/work/whatever.

This one is 100% on you. Next time open the thing up, there are so many locksmiths which you would probably have bought this from they would have told you on the spot what would fit properly.

If I quote a say door replacement, I always have a disclaimer about framing, termite, rot damage. I also have a disclaimer about drywall and paint redo, unless I included it. Plumber can say well I opened the wall and the cast iron pipe have a hairline crack which no one could have seen, that's a fair change order.

What am I missing here?? Did I mis-read something?
I think you did...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtztgue View Post
Well, as it turns out once we pulled the original hardware apart and got into it, we discovered it was a special modification to the door and an unusual lock design. Damn. Okay, so we decided to switch to option B which we would have done for the same price. But, then the client decides they really want the look of option A. That is doable but would require factory modifications and a 5 week lead time.
He's familiar with the locks which is why he originally quoted two options... no reason to take it apart to quote it under those circumstances... it was when they had gotten into it, that they discovered the internals were a special modification and unusual lock design... it could be doable but would require FACTORY modifications and a 5-week lead time...

IOW, the factory product that was visible during the walk-through, was internally modified from the factory design...
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Old 05-31-2019, 06:44 PM   #13
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Re: Change Orders And/or Modifications


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I think you did...

He's familiar with the locks which is why he originally quoted two options... no reason to take it apart to quote it under those circumstances... it was when they had gotten into it, that they discovered the internals were a special modification and unusual lock design... it could be doable but would require FACTORY modifications and a 5-week lead time...

IOW, the factory product that was visible during the walk-through, was internally modified from the factory design...
I must have missed that too. Thanks for the explanation. I retract my post above (#9) in this case.

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