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Asking For More Money

 
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:13 PM   #201
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Re: Asking For More Money


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8k more? The way i understand it is he fronted the 8k himself in good faith which they have refused to reimburse him. Doesnt sound like there is any "more" to it at this point. Maybe i missed some things.
You got some reading to do.

He claims the homeowners bought some of the flooring and other materials themselves. Many of these were upgrades over what he was suppose to provide. He also had a few other issues (late truss delivery, other job delays, etc) which caused his costs to rise. His contract appears to be full of holes and he did not require them to make an initial deposit.
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:38 PM   #202
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Re: Asking For More Money


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Originally Posted by KAP View Post
$500 cost
$400 overhead (includes your pay)
$100 GROSS profit

If your costs were $501 but your $400 overhead and $100 profit remained in tact, then your costs would now be $501, your overhead $400 and your profit $99...

Your costs and overhead are what they are... the profit is there for a variety of reasons, but one is absorbing loss among the first two if you cannot get them reimbursed... the opposite is also true, if you SAVED money on materials, and finished the job in less time that you accounted for, your GROSS profit INCREASES as well...

The challenge is most guys do not distinguish what they pay themselves versus company profit... they think they are one in the same, they are not... then there is GROSS profit versus NET profit...

Here's an indicator... If you are not paying your company at the end of every job, you are not charging enough, and will constantly find yourself in robbing Peter to pay Paul cycles...

BTW, the "real men" comment was directed back at the one who introduced it to the conversation...
It seems you would say the job lost money only if it exceeds the planed budget by $101 and then cuts into overhead. You are also saying that EVERY job should pay the business which would make me think that if the job exceeds the planed $500 you would call it a loss (granted you did say that one of the functions of profit is to cover such an overage) So lets get to the bottom of this. The example has been given. At what dollar amount does that job become a looser?
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:18 PM   #203
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Re: Asking For More Money


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Originally Posted by KAP View Post
$500 cost
$400 overhead (includes your pay)
$100 GROSS profit

If your costs were $501 but your $400 overhead and $100 profit remained in tact, then your costs would now be $501, your overhead $400 and your profit $99...

Your costs and overhead are what they are... the profit is there for a variety of reasons, but one is absorbing loss among the first two if you cannot get them reimbursed... the opposite is also true, if you SAVED money on materials, and finished the job in less time that you accounted for, your GROSS profit INCREASES as well...

The challenge is most guys do not distinguish what they pay themselves versus company profit... they think they are one in the same, they are not... then there is GROSS profit versus NET profit...

Here's an indicator... If you are not paying your company at the end of every job, you are not charging enough, and will constantly find yourself in robbing Peter to pay Paul cycles...

BTW, the "real men" comment was directed back at the one who introduced it to the conversation...
Gross profit is the amount before deducting overhead, payroll, tax, etc. So 100 isn't a gross profit it's net. (although it's an oversimplified model).

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It is not cut and dry. You just made a comment that it is cut and dry and I can not even guess if you would say the job lost money at $501, $601 or $1001. Which would it be?
Frank read my post again...not every second word.

500 C, 400 OH, 100 NP

Total Cost is 900, money left in the bank is 100.

Therefore if your costs rise beyond that $100 margin you are in the red (red meaning negative balance).

Therefore if your costs go to 601...601 + 400 OH = 1001. You got 1000, you spend 1001 that ends up with a negative balance of 1. You are now taking money out of your account to pay for this job.

That is what we call loosing money.

Let's try a different example. If Johnny starts the day with 5 apples, he is offered 1 apple to shine your shoes, he takes the job but has to spend two apples on expenses he is left with 4 apples. Less than before he did the work...hence "losing".

When you lose something...you have fewer of said somethings than when you started.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:26 PM   #204
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Re: Asking For More Money


Well let me tell you I just lost my shirt on a job and it is MY fault.

I had $30 left over at the end of this job. It took three days and I target for $750 a day. So I lost $2200 at the end of this job. I got no pay. My company made zero money.

I hear all the time about guys who say they made $500 on a job and I say that's good, what did the company make and they say " huh, $500."

That's the problem with this business. I would say only a select few actually get it.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:34 PM   #205
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Re: Asking For More Money


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The first paragraph was primarily for you... meaning, eating it and paying for it on your dime doesn't stop them from "redding you all over the internet"...

No offense, but since you "loose money on jobs several times a year,"and you think... "its just the way it goes", you might want to read the rest of it...

Losing money is not how real men role... learning how NOT to lose money is how real men role...
In the interest of my new quest of not getting so butt hurt and going all postal in a self destructive spiral of bannedness Ill just say that anyone who is committed to customer service and a good reputation will loose money on a job from time to time. Now perhaps you are more perfect than I which wouldn't be hard, but I doubt highly you always make money.

I am also not interested in a financial lesson. I understand to xs and os, it is what it is.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:15 PM   #206
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Re: Asking For More Money


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Originally Posted by Inner10 View Post
Gross profit is the amount before deducting overhead, payroll, tax, etc. So 100 isn't a gross profit it's net. (although it's an oversimplified model).



Frank read my post again...not every second word.

500 C, 400 OH, 100 NP

Total Cost is 900, money left in the bank is 100.

Therefore if your costs rise beyond that $100 margin you are in the red (red meaning negative balance).

Therefore if your costs go to 601...601 + 400 OH = 1001. You got 1000, you spend 1001 that ends up with a negative balance of 1. You are now taking money out of your account to pay for this job.

That is what we call loosing money.

Let's try a different example. If Johnny starts the day with 5 apples, he is offered 1 apple to shine your shoes, he takes the job but has to spend two apples on expenses he is left with 4 apples. Less than before he did the work...hence "losing".

When you lose something...you have fewer of said somethings than when you started.
You can make numbers say anything you want them to. Overhead is not fixed either. Its a target. I have seen a lot of business with large overhead budget who where having a bad year and I they did not keep to the budget. They cut it in half right in the middle of the year. Now the jobs that "cut into overhead" magically turned green.

That overhead pays our salaries and maybe even pays our wives (or husbands). It pays us rent for our shops we personally own. It pays for the vehicles we drive. There are probably guys on this site who visits the red a lot and makes a lot of money and is doing very well for themselves.

If you budget to do 1,000 jobs in a year that are all $1,000 jobs with the number break down described you would have a $400,000 overhead budget. If every job all year cost you $505 (five dollars above the line on every job) but you increased your volume and actually completed 1,100 jobs you end up with $44,500 extras at the end of the year. This means that every job all year went over budget but because you increased your volume you end ahead.

Its not as black and white as you want it to be and that is why I made you speak for yourself rather then assume. I don't care if every job is a winner. I care if every year is a winner. Even years get harry on paper because of how cash flow works with large projects as the years switch.

The greater point here is that you can't assume some one needs to here you talk because they have some jobs in the red. For all you know his business is making more money then yours and paying him more then yours pays you. The fact that he isn't stressed about a little red ink tells me he might be doing very well.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:55 AM   #207
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Re: Asking For More Money


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You can make numbers say anything you want them to. Overhead is not fixed either. Its a target. I have seen a lot of business with large overhead budget who where having a bad year and I they did not keep to the budget. They cut it in half right in the middle of the year. Now the jobs that "cut into overhead" magically turned green.

That overhead pays our salaries and maybe even pays our wives (or husbands). It pays us rent for our shops we personally own. It pays for the vehicles we drive. There are probably guys on this site who visits the red a lot and makes a lot of money and is doing very well for themselves.

If you budget to do 1,000 jobs in a year that are all $1,000 jobs with the number break down described you would have a $400,000 overhead budget. If every job all year cost you $505 (five dollars above the line on every job) but you increased your volume and actually completed 1,100 jobs you end up with $44,500 extras at the end of the year. This means that every job all year went over budget but because you increased your volume you end ahead.

Its not as black and white as you want it to be and that is why I made you speak for yourself rather then assume. I don't care if every job is a winner. I care if every year is a winner. Even years get harry on paper because of how cash flow works with large projects as the years switch.

The greater point here is that you can't assume some one needs to here you talk because they have some jobs in the red. For all you know his business is making more money then yours and paying him more then yours pays you. The fact that he isn't stressed about a little red ink tells me he might be doing very well.
You were the one who provided the hard numbers and asked the question...I didn't make up the numbers, you did.

Obviously he could be making infinity more money than I do but my point stands, if you are loosing money on SEVERAL jobs a YEAR something has to change.

Everyone's business has areas that need improvement...and if mine involved thinking it was perfectly fine to loose money on multiple jobs per annum...I'd focus on that first.
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:52 AM   #208
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Re: Asking For More Money


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Originally Posted by ohiohomedoctor View Post
In the interest of my new quest of not getting so butt hurt and going all postal in a self destructive spiral of bannedness Ill just say that anyone who is committed to customer service and a good reputation will loose money on a job from time to time. Now perhaps you are more perfect than I which wouldn't be hard, but I doubt highly you always make money.

I am also not interested in a financial lesson. I understand to xs and os, it is what it is.
Dude I used to be you (your thinking that is)... Being committed to customer service and not losing money are not two mutually exclusive things...

The reason I think it is important in your case, is that you made the comment that you lose money several times per year... that is NOT a good thing. So that means you are either not charging enough (or estimating for labor is off or you are guesstimating materials) or you are giving away to much in freebies under the banner of "customer service" or some other reasnon... the best customer service is under promising and over delivering... but that doesn't mean losing money. Learn to extract money from your business...

But if you are not finding yourself in the middle of robbing Peter to pay Paul cycles, and paying your company with profit is not a foreign concept to you, who am I to say what you are doing is right or wrong? If you are however, there is a better way of operating so you don't have to experience those ups and downs...

Most of my jobs come from referrals, the rest from home/street shows... so customer service is VERY important to me... but so is not losing money, which affects not just me but my family...
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:01 AM   #209
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Re: Asking For More Money


I make a decent living. I go on vacation several times a year, I spend a lot of time with my kids, and I have a business which will grow as fast as I want it to. Most of my work is from refferals too.

Bidding remodeling is not an exact science. We usually have several nice projects going at one time so taking a small loss to gain future work on a few projects a year doesn't affect my family at all. Getting all indignant and throwing around menial change orders might though.

Like I said, most will likely not agree.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:05 AM   #210
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Re: Asking For More Money


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I make a decent living. I go on vacation several times a year, I spend a lot of time with my kids, and I have a business which will grow as fast as I want it to. Most of my work is from refferals too.

Bidding remodeling is not an exact science. We usually have several nice projects going at one time so taking a small loss to gain future work on a few projects a year doesn't affect my family at all. Getting all indignant and throwing around menial change orders might though.

Like I said, most will likely not agree.
Sure you just aren't exaggerating any trying to sound all high and mighty about loosing money?
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:19 AM   #211
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Re: Asking For More Money


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Sure you just aren't exaggerating any trying to sound all high and mighty about loosing money?
I need not exaggerate and didn't intend to come off high and mighty so if I did I'm sorry. I am just supporting my stance.

I have as much to learn as the next guy, I'm just sharing some of what I have gathered so far.

Btw, today is my 30th b day so I'm a little depressed about loosing my 20's and entering middle age so if I am coming across a little tudey again I'm sorry..
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:25 AM   #212
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Re: Asking For More Money


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Originally Posted by FrankSmith View Post
You can make numbers say anything you want them to. Overhead is not fixed either. Its a target. I have seen a lot of business with large overhead budget who where having a bad year and I they did not keep to the budget. They cut it in half right in the middle of the year. Now the jobs that "cut into overhead" magically turned green.
Now imagine if they cut the OH in half in the beginning of the year...


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Originally Posted by FrankSmith View Post
That overhead pays our salaries and maybe even pays our wives (or husbands). It pays us rent for our shops we personally own. It pays for the vehicles we drive. There are probably guys on this site who visits the red a lot and makes a lot of money and is doing very well for themselves.
LOMP...


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If you budget to do 1,000 jobs in a year that are all $1,000 jobs with the number break down described you would have a $400,000 overhead budget. If every job all year cost you $505 (five dollars above the line on every job) but you increased your volume and actually completed 1,100 jobs you end up with $44,500 extras at the end of the year. This means that every job all year went over budget but because you increased your volume you end ahead.
That again, is an oversimplification... with an increase of 10% of the amount of jobs you complete, comes another set of circumstances which can directly affect your budget model...


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankSmith View Post
I don't care if every job is a winner. I care if every year is a winner.
The former has a lot to do with the latter...


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankSmith View Post
The greater point here is that you can't assume some one needs to here you talk because they have some jobs in the red. For all you know his business is making more money then yours and paying him more then yours pays you. The fact that he isn't stressed about a little red ink tells me he might be doing very well.
No-one said anything in a malicious way so I don't understand your angst here...

Not saying he is one of them, but I know lots of guys who outwardly aren't stressed about money but struggle every month...
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:25 AM   #213
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Re: Asking For More Money


Happy bday doc!
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:28 AM   #214
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I need not exaggerate and didn't intend to come off high and mighty so if I did I'm sorry. I am just supporting my stance.

I have as much to learn as the next guy, I'm just sharing some of what I have gathered so far.

Btw, today is my 30th b day so I'm a little depressed about loosing my 20's and entering middle age so if I am coming across a little tudey again I'm sorry..
Happy Birthday...
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:30 AM   #215
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Re: Asking For More Money


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Originally Posted by ohiohomedoctor View Post
I need not exaggerate and didn't intend to come off high and mighty so if I did I'm sorry. I am just supporting my stance.

I have as much to learn as the next guy, I'm just sharing some of what I have gathered so far.

Btw, today is my 30th b day so I'm a little depressed about loosing my 20's and entering middle age so if I am coming across a little tudey again I'm sorry..
Well happy birthday! You aren't middle aged yet unless you plan on keeling over dead at the age of 60.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:36 AM   #216
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I make a decent living. I go on vacation several times a year, I spend a lot of time with my kids, and I have a business which will grow as fast as I want it to. Most of my work is from refferals too.

Bidding remodeling is not an exact science. We usually have several nice projects going at one time so taking a small loss to gain future work on a few projects a year doesn't affect my family at all. Getting all indignant and throwing around menial change orders might though.

Like I said, most will likely not agree.
All that said, don't you think it would better to work reducing your instances of losing money several times per year to just a couple and then none?

It absolutely can be done... we do it, I believe Leo says he does it, and I am sure there are others...

A Change Order is simply something that wasn't accounted for in the original project... we all have customers we do extra's for... BUT, it should be to the point where you are LOSING money...

The OP's guy was not only not a customer but threatening him with a lawsuit...
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:55 AM   #217
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Re: Asking For More Money


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Originally Posted by ohiohomedoctor View Post
I need not exaggerate and didn't intend to come off high and mighty so if I did I'm sorry. I am just supporting my stance.

I have as much to learn as the next guy, I'm just sharing some of what I have gathered so far.

Btw, today is my 30th b day so I'm a little depressed about loosing my 20's and entering middle age so if I am coming across a little tudey again I'm sorry..
No sweat Doctor...you're not on trial here! If your operation works for you that's all that matters. Guys on here can't possibly have all the details without shadowing you in the office and on site to see every little detail and change about the way you run your business. If you're doing 500k in sales annually and on 6 out of 30 jobs you lose a few hundred bucks, but those 6 lead to 180k worth of work next year...well most on here would say that was a win! Without all the info, everyone is speculating and probably comparing losing money to THEIR own situations and how it would affect them if it happened.

Happy Birthday man!
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Old 04-20-2013, 10:17 AM   #218
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Re: Asking For More Money


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Btw, today is my 30th b day so I'm a little depressed about loosing my 20's and entering middle age so if I am coming across a little tudey again I'm sorry..
If I understand Inner10's earlier post correctly Matt, you aren't losing your 20's because you still have them but you are gaining your thirties. So it looks like it's been a fairly profitable day for you.

Happy B-Day!
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Old 04-20-2013, 10:44 AM   #219
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Re: Asking For More Money


How did this post go from homeowner wants remodel upgrades and labor for free to who has the best O&P ratio to happy birthday (happy bday ohiohomedoc by the way)

Did anyone notice if elbud is still alive?

I think we are all glued to his story because on some level we've been in his shoes.
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Old 04-20-2013, 11:01 AM   #220
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Re: Asking For More Money


I'm still here. Waiting to hear back from the homeowners bank. Their banker contacted me and left a message, asking me to call him back which I did however he was out of the office yesterday

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