Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding? - Windows, Siding and Doors - Contractor Talk

Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?

 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-31-2006, 04:18 PM   #1
 
mci2980's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 32
Rewards Points: 25

Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


i do alot of vinyl and often here people talk about the fact that vinyl siding if not "waterproof". I have no problem agreeing with that.
How do you think it compares to other traditional siding methods. I do all types of siding and i honestly think that viny is the most watertight and durable siding out there. Cedar shingle/shakes, claps etc are proven and extremely atractive. you can paint, stain and change the look of the building. I have not done much hardi (YET) but its the same install as traditional claps.

but back to the original question of this post?
All siding has there potential problem areas. They exist no matter your choice of siding. They all have there own issues (expasion, contraction) Vinyl does not absorb water.
Why is it that everytime people talk about siding it is the same stuff "vinyl is not waterproof" I would say that no siding is water proof.
I personally will be putting vinyl on my house and think that properly done a Viynl sided and aluminum trimmed house is more watertight than any thing out there. The flashing capabilities with the aluminum trim is unlimited combined with some extreme underlayment cut to fit, blind caulked and finish silicone. I would almost bet that just about any house i have sided would stand the elements as good or better than any cedar job
I also agree that vinyl dosn't even compare to cedar on looks. Nothing beats the look of a nice cedar job.
I have just located this particular forum and feel i may be able to contribute a bit from the experience i have. I may sometimes ramble a bit but hopefully it will make some sense to someone.
HAPPY NEW YEAR TOO ALL BE SAFE
mci2980 is offline  

Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ContractorTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

   

Advertisement

 

Old 12-31-2006, 04:37 PM   #2
Pro
 
concretemasonry's Avatar
 
Trade: Masonry consultant
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MSP, Minnesota
Posts: 3,379
Rewards Points: 2,960

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


The vinyl siding on a house is NOT INTENDED TO BE WATERPROOF. It is just a surface that is intended to shed the water.

The key to a home being "waterproof" is your primary water barrier (house wrap or tar paper, etc.) that is under your siding, brick,stucco, etc. The wrap works with your window flashing and sealing to create the waterbarrier.

You cannot make the siding waterproof because of the laps. joints and expansion characterisitcs.

If you could make it waterprrof by sealing all (and I mean all) joints it would not breathe and you would have horrible mold and moisture problems.

Dick

Advertisement

concretemasonry is online now  
Old 01-01-2007, 12:59 AM   #3
Pro
 
house bldr's Avatar
 
Trade: general contractor
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: kansas
Posts: 272
Rewards Points: 250

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


vinyl siding is not water tight, water will get in through the seams with a good wind,in the sides of j channel and many other places. the key to a good water tight job is proper flashing to shed the water that gets in,back outside.For example,flash under j channel on the sides of windows down over top of the next row of siding.There will always be a little water that gets in the j and runs down,this will bring it back out.This holds true in many other instances.But with a little common sense and a lot of flashing you can keep the water out.
house bldr is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-01-2007, 03:51 AM   #4
Pro
 
Teetorbilt's Avatar
 
Trade: Residential Contractor
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Jensen Beach, FL
Posts: 10,471
Rewards Points: 2,000

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


Siding is like roofing. The exterior is only the first line of defense. It only protects that which is underneath it, vapor barrier, insulation, etc.
__________________
You can't solve you're problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems.

Albert Einstein
Teetorbilt is offline  
Old 01-31-2007, 07:27 PM   #5
 
ProSide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 42
Rewards Points: 25

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


Anyone that thinks Vinyl siding is waterproof should look at the bottom of a panel...............There is a reason those holes are there........
ProSide is offline  
Old 03-14-2007, 09:35 PM   #6
Pro
 
tinner666's Avatar
 
Trade: Roofer, Domains and Hosting
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Richmond, Va.
Posts: 2,456
Rewards Points: 1,000

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


Quote:
Originally Posted by house bldr View Post
vinyl siding is not water tight, water will get in through the seams with a good wind,in the sides of j channel and many other places. the key to a good water tight job is proper flashing to shed the water that gets in,back outside.For example,flash under j channel on the sides of windows down over top of the next row of siding.There will always be a little water that gets in the j and runs down,this will bring it back out.This holds true in many other instances.But with a little common sense and a lot of flashing you can keep the water out.

The windows are where most of the water gets in. A little more detail about shedding the water;

http://www.albertsroofing.com/Window%20Flashing.htm
tinner666 is offline  
Old 11-18-2007, 10:46 AM   #7
 
losthenfound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 102
Rewards Points: 75

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


Primary protection is the tarpaper, TYVEK, etc. That is sad. J channels are a sad way to have to install siding. Butt-and-caulk is best, but with the new age plastic, it must move. It leaks - bottom line. No good - give it up.
losthenfound is offline  
Old 11-18-2007, 11:03 AM   #8
Sophisticated Siding Guy.
 
thesidingpro's Avatar
 
Trade: Roofing, Siding, Windows, Decks, and more!
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Louisville
Posts: 528
Rewards Points: 164

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


You are one of the most annoying posters I've came across in a while.

You have no clue what you are talking about. There are proper details that take care of all the problems you keep mentioning.

90% of my work is fiber-cement but I still think Vinyl is a good product.

Someone you look up to probably doesn't like vinyl and you just decided to run with it. I think that because you have no documentation or facts. Just one line bombs.

Digging up threads from months ago....Get a life.
thesidingpro is offline  
Old 11-19-2007, 06:48 AM   #9
 
losthenfound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 102
Rewards Points: 75

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


Nobody has influenced my opinion. 30 yrs. buddy. I was around when this stuff came out. You are getting personal now and sorry if the truth hurts but I am changing minds one consumer at a time. To install a product like Hardiplank properly and with proper and true watershed theory, is to reject vinyl altogether. Once you know the difference, you can't install plastic. None of my crews will look at another pc of plastic.
losthenfound is offline  
Old 11-19-2007, 06:54 AM   #10
 
losthenfound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 102
Rewards Points: 75

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


The windows are where most of the water gets in. A little more detail about shedding the water;

Good job Tinner


Duct tape! That works. A good band aid and as good as you can get.
losthenfound is offline  
Old 11-19-2007, 07:45 AM   #11
 
losthenfound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 102
Rewards Points: 75

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tinner666 View Post
The windows are where most of the water gets in. A little more detail about shedding the water;

http://www.albertsroofing.com/Window%20Flashing.htm

Good Job

Duct Tape fixes everything
losthenfound is offline  
Old 11-19-2007, 09:40 AM   #12
Curmudgeon
 
neolitic's Avatar
 
Trade: carpentry/remodeling/"Yes M'am we do"
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Beech Grove, Indiana, Birthplace of the "King of Cool"
Posts: 11,706
Rewards Points: 2,000

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


Quote:
Originally Posted by losthenfound View Post
Good Job....Duct Tape fixes everything
Seems you forgot to read the part where he said that the duct tape was for purposes of illustration only...meant to stand in for flashing tape in a mock-up?
I would tend to agree with you, if you didn't go out of your way to be such an obnoxious, overbearing, prick.
It seems that you don't really want to promote a discussion, but just pick a fight.
If you truly wish to influence thinking, you don't begin by drawing lines in the sand and backing people into corners.

I must however thank you for bringing this up, because it drew my attention to Tinner's post, which is very informative.


Tinner, thank you for the first ever explanation I have seen for really solving a problem that I have seen time and time again.
Unfortunately I have never seen this detail in use before. I wonder how many other installers actually go to this much trouble, I'm betting it's less than 1%!
__________________
Put your location in your profile!
(Sorry....it seems there really are dumb questions)

Last edited by neolitic; 11-19-2007 at 09:43 AM.
neolitic is offline  
Old 11-19-2007, 02:54 PM   #13
Al Smith
 
A W Smith's Avatar
 
Trade: Home Improvement contractor since 1983, In building field since 1974, Licensed
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: South River NJ
Posts: 2,392
Rewards Points: 1,000

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolitic View Post
Seems you forgot to read the part where he said that the duct tape was for purposes of illustration only...meant to stand in for flashing tape in a mock-up?
I would tend to agree with you, if you didn't go out of your way to be such an obnoxious, overbearing, prick.
It seems that you don't really want to promote a discussion, but just pick a fight.
If you truly wish to influence thinking, you don't begin by drawing lines in the sand and backing people into corners.

I must however thank you for bringing this up, because it drew my attention to Tinner's post, which is very informative.


Tinner, thank you for the first ever explanation I have seen for really solving a problem that I have seen time and time again.
Unfortunately I have never seen this detail in use before. I wonder how many other installers actually go to this much trouble, I'm betting it's less than 1%!

page 24 of this pdf

Quote:

2. Where the final complete
course of siding stops
below the window—the
flashing must be wide
enough to divert water
over it.
__________________
Al Smith
http://www.awsmith.com
A W Smith is offline  
Old 11-19-2007, 03:11 PM   #14
 
losthenfound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 102
Rewards Points: 75

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolitic View Post
Seems you forgot to read the part where he said that the duct tape was for purposes of illustration only...meant to stand in for flashing tape in a mock-up?
I would tend to agree with you, if you didn't go out of your way to be such an obnoxious, overbearing, prick.
It seems that you don't really want to promote a discussion, but just pick a fight.
If you truly wish to influence thinking, you don't begin by drawing lines in the sand and backing people into corners.

I must however thank you for bringing this up, because it drew my attention to Tinner's post, which is very informative.


Tinner, thank you for the first ever explanation I have seen for really solving a problem that I have seen time and time again.
Unfortunately I have never seen this detail in use before. I wonder how many other installers actually go to this much trouble, I'm betting it's less than 1%!
Thanks Neo,

Those that stand for what is right will be called names and hated for it. What is right is just that and clear for those who can easily determine a flawed system from a proper approach. It is only when motivations of profit get in the way that all reason and judgement is clowded in self serving and contribed logic.
losthenfound is offline  
Old 11-19-2007, 04:29 PM   #15
Pro
 
oldfrt's Avatar
 
Trade: Remodeling
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Northwest Connecticut
Posts: 2,565
Rewards Points: 94

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


Here ye,here ye.All Rise.
The honorable Judge Losthenfounn has entered the Forum.


I thought this was a forum for discussion,not a courtroom for deciding which product has the most flaws,or is guilty of putting a HO's real estate in danger of destruction.
It seems that the judge has ruled ,and no jury or witnesses can change his mind.Well this is not a case of blind justice,but of a blind Judge.
After being presented the facts,(clearly he must be able to read),Judge Losthenfound has chosen to ignore any reasoning that doesn't support his own personal fanaticism.
Having being presented clear and concise details for proper applications,he ignores the facts and findings of others,and still has the nerve to sigh off on his threads with a little jib ,( Duct Tape will make Vinyl Siding Work)knowing that this statement is nothing more than his own misconception of the facts.

So in his own words;


Those that stand for what is right will be called names and hated for it. What is right is just that and clear for those who can easily determine a flawed system from a proper approach. It is only when motivations of profit get in the way that all reason and judgement is clowded in self serving and contribed logic.
__________________
Duct Tape will make Vinyl Siding Work


So I can only concede that his own motivation for profit are getting in the way of his judgement of self serving and contributed logic.
oldfrt is offline  
Old 11-19-2007, 06:07 PM   #16
Pro
 
concretemasonry's Avatar
 
Trade: Masonry consultant
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MSP, Minnesota
Posts: 3,379
Rewards Points: 2,960

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


oldfrt -

I am probably older than you if that means anything.

I make money when there are constructon problems. I earlier stated that vinyl siding is just intended to shed water so the primary water barrier can do the job. Unfortunately, vinyl siding requires a systen of channels, overlaps and other items that can easily be installed improperly. The number of possibilities for failures are larger than with other siding materials.

Because of the low cost attraction, the system seems to lure many people that do not understand the principals and requirements for a good stallation and frequently take short-cuts. Just because vinyl does not absorb moisture, people erroneously assume it is a waterproof system (although it has about as many possible leaks as a seive).

The biggest law suit problems I see are amateurish window installation (about 60% of the windows) by contractors and improper water control with vinyl siding. It is a good thing that the DRYVIT problems have flushed out the uneducated and unqualified contractors to the extent it is not permitted on wood frame in many places. Fortunately, traditional stucco continues to eliminate the problems created by poor DRYVIT installations and designs.

Just a comment for perspective.
__________________
Dick

Engineer, designer and consultant recently active domestically and internationally on construction and design in about 40 countries.
concretemasonry is online now  
Old 11-19-2007, 07:11 PM   #17
Pro
 
oldfrt's Avatar
 
Trade: Remodeling
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Northwest Connecticut
Posts: 2,565
Rewards Points: 94

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


Quote:
Originally Posted by concretemasonry View Post
oldfrt -

I am probably older than you if that means anything.

I make money when there are constructon problems. I earlier stated that vinyl siding is just intended to shed water so the primary water barrier can do the job. Unfortunately, vinyl siding requires a systen of channels, overlaps and other items that can easily be installed improperly. The number of possibilities for failures are larger than with other siding materials.

Because of the low cost attraction, the system seems to lure many people that do not understand the principals and requirements for a good stallation and frequently take short-cuts. Just because vinyl does not absorb moisture, people erroneously assume it is a waterproof system (although it has about as many possible leaks as a seive).



The biggest law suit problems I see are amateurish window installation (about 60% of the windows) by contractors and improper water control with vinyl siding. It is a good thing that the DRYVIT problems have flushed out the uneducated and unqualified contractors to the extent it is not permitted on wood frame in many places. Fortunately, traditional stucco continues to eliminate the problems created by poor DRYVIT installations and designs.

Just a comment for perspective.
Concrete
Point taken.I've seen botched siding jobs,but it doesn't mean you throw the whole industry into the toilet.It's like any application of roofing or siding.If it isn't done right,the possibilities for disaster will exits.
I've seen many roofers that depend on tar or caulk instead of flashing.Ive seen siding slapped on by people that don't know what they're doing.
The possibilities for leaks goes across the industry for every type of exterior cladding.
The problem isn't the product,but the applicators.I'm sure stucco has it's limitations.I worked on a stucco house that became infested with ants and termites,hidden from detection for many years,and doing thousands of $'s in damage.
But I'm not out here to tell everyone that it's the worst type of exterior finish.So when I see a fanatic trying to convince everyone that his product is the one and only watertight product,I have to speak up.
Especially when his product relies on caulk to guaranty the integrity of his application.

I believe the industry has changed for the better in the sense that most of the installers I know,sell their own jobs.It's their name thats on the line, and they take pride in their craftsmanship.There's a difference between doing your own work or subbing out all your jobs.The quality is controlled by the installer/owner.
If a HO shops on price alone,they'll get what they pay for.Unfortunately most HO's aren't savvy enough to know what the differences in quality mean over the long haul.
I've been in business in a small town for 25 years and have never had to advertise.I take pride in my work and give the HO more than they will ever get from the big box stores that hire unqualified installers to apply the cheapest components.

The industry's bad name comes from low quality installations (material as well as labor)
oldfrt is offline  
Old 11-19-2007, 07:17 PM   #18
Sophisticated Siding Guy.
 
thesidingpro's Avatar
 
Trade: Roofing, Siding, Windows, Decks, and more!
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Louisville
Posts: 528
Rewards Points: 164

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


Quote:
So I can only concede that his own motivation for profit are getting in the way of his judgement of self serving and contributed logic.
That one kills me.

I have him on ignore and that's all I need to read......
thesidingpro is offline  
Old 11-19-2007, 07:48 PM   #19
 
losthenfound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 102
Rewards Points: 75

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


Sorry guys…..I missed the logic:

A methodology that installs an (improper) horizontal gutter at the window and door heads, thereby collecting and directing water beneath the cladding material and then TYVEK (not duct tape – sorry) Tape is used to manage the horizontal tracking of said water….Then a whole bunch of sub-level measures to make up for the water intrusion (see all the tinner666 pics – good stuff). Then drill some extra holes to try to let the water out.
-or-

Install a PROPER Water-table that sheds 100% of the water off the window and door heads and cut and butt your siding tight and apply a neat, 1/8” caulk joint to the bottom of the opening.
losthenfound is offline  
Old 11-19-2007, 07:51 PM   #20
Pro
 
oldfrt's Avatar
 
Trade: Remodeling
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Northwest Connecticut
Posts: 2,565
Rewards Points: 94

Re: Watertight Integrity Of Viynl Siding?


YES CAULK?
the answer to all our problems,right up there with duct tape!

Advertisement

oldfrt is offline  


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Siding: Aluminum vs. Vinyl Grumpy Windows, Siding and Doors 21 03-30-2010 07:02 PM
removing egg from vinyl siding Zeebo Painting & Finish Work 14 03-23-2010 10:19 AM
Siding & Windows Sales needed - Chicago area - NO SALES EXPERIENCE Grumpy Help Wanted or Looking For Work 4 05-26-2009 02:51 PM
siding over wood siding AustinDB Windows, Siding and Doors 2 05-07-2007 04:26 PM
asbestos siding bill6078 Windows, Siding and Doors 4 03-05-2006 11:33 AM

Join Now... It's Fast and FREE!

I am a professional contractor
I am a DIY Homeowner
Drywall Talk is for
PROFESSIONAL CONTRACTORS ONLY!

At DrywallTalk.com we cater exlusivly to professional contractors who make their living as a contractor. Knowing that many homeowners and DIYers are looking for a community to call home, we've created www.DIYChatroom.com DIY Chatroom is full of helpful advices and perfect for DIY homeowners.

Redirecing in 10 seconds
No Thanks
terms of service

Already Have an Account?