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Vinyl Replacement Windows

 
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Old 12-05-2014, 03:03 AM   #1
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Vinyl Replacement Windows


I seem to be always running into rotted out trim around the standard vinyl insert replacement window. I usually enter the picture 5-8 years after it's been installed: the caulk has long since failed and the paint is the only thing left of the piece of untreated pine the installer stuck underneath the window. Ironically the original Doug fir sill is often in perfect shape!

The repair is pretty simple but I always find myself wondering if it's the caulking around the window that failed or did the frame of the window fail and its leaking in behind. It's a pretty awkward thing to test normally.

What do you guys normally do in this situation?
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Old 12-05-2014, 07:06 AM   #2
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


replace the entire unit,imo once you see rot it's no longer a candidate for an insert

there shouldn't be any wood ''stop'' installed on the outside at the bottom

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Old 12-05-2014, 07:40 AM   #3
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


It could be poor inusulating too. The vinyl replacement I use have weather stripping on 3 sides but none on the sill. Then there are those ugly expanders on the head. If you dont insulate those areas they are going to leak moisture from inside so an already old frame isnt going to survive.

I think air pressures in a house act similar to putting your thumb over a water hose. The flow gets more concentrated the more you tighten the seal. So more moisture moves through smaller leaks.
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Old 12-05-2014, 12:25 PM   #4
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


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replace the entire unit,imo once you see rot it's no longer a candidate for an insert

there shouldn't be any wood ''stop'' installed on the outside at the bottom
I think I used the wrong term: I meant vinyl insert windows, not replacement windows... although i usually run into the same question.

The 'wood stop' is the filler piece they stuck underneath the window to cover the gap between their square insert and the sloped original sill.

Maybe these things were installed to a higher standard in your neck of the woods but around here I've seen those filler pieces covering gaps up to an inch and a half. I'll sometimes see them on the side of the windows as well.

I always assumed they got some salesman to do half ass measurements, he took a half inch off to be "safe." Then the installer getting paid piecework slapped them in.
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Old 12-05-2014, 02:09 PM   #5
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


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I think I used the wrong term: I meant vinyl insert windows, not replacement windows... although i usually run into the same question.

The 'wood stop' is the filler piece they stuck underneath the window to cover the gap between their square insert and the sloped original sill.

Maybe these things were installed to a higher standard in your neck of the woods but around here I've seen those filler pieces covering gaps up to an inch and a half. I'll sometimes see them on the side of the windows as well.

I always assumed they got some salesman to do half ass measurements, he took a half inch off to be "safe." Then the installer getting paid piecework slapped them in.
Any insert I have every seen comes with a sill extender piece which snaps onto the insert to bridge that gap. There should not be any wood there.
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Old 12-05-2014, 07:03 PM   #6
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


i have seen those sill angle expanders installed wrong,most newer welded units have a groove where it snaps in to.old style was just an L which is supposed to be installed first so the unit sits over the top.i see them installed so they overlap the bottom of the window making a water pocket..
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Old 12-05-2014, 08:55 PM   #7
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


Interesting. If there's one thing i can absolutely guarantee its that there are LOTS of things i don't know.

I do know about the sill extenders, I just don't see them being used. Most all of the insert windows i notice are done the way I've described... crap. Now i'm gonna be staring at everyone's windows for a while.
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Old 12-05-2014, 09:28 PM   #8
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


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Originally Posted by Tom Struble View Post
i have seen those sill angle expanders installed wrong,most newer welded units have a groove where it snaps in to.old style was just an L which is supposed to be installed first so the unit sits over the top.i see them installed so they overlap the bottom of the window making a water pocket..
Tom do you use those windows from Allied ? Cutedge. When yousay snap in groove I th ink of those. When you say "L"that drops in I think of the older Metal industry windows. They were cheesy.
I use America Jewel the 1700 or Dorwin because they are close.
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Old 12-06-2014, 08:19 AM   #9
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


Very few window subs have any real carpentry skills when it comes to correct flashing and capping. Most of what I see is lipstick and mascara. We are fixing some 14-month old Renewal by Andersen bad capping right now in which the installers capped the sill into the face accessory groove on triple-casement units and place a 5/4" board as sort of a sill onto the brick sill. They didn't pitch the board with any type of slope and nose cap was too tall which allowed water to collect on top of the sill cap and sit against the caulk line of the window.

When we ripped it off everything was wet. They were also supposed to fix some existing rotted wood in which they lied and didn't. RBA refused to admit that they did the capping wrong and said their method is the industry standard. Whatever. What a bunch of hack losers with their pretty, but overpriced windows. Their casements have the whole bottom of the sash open to the elements as one can see all of the cranking hardware from and exterior view by design, very weird.

I've seen guys do all types of sill capping to application of the sill expander tie ins. Most modern higher end vinyl windows will have a decent face groove snap in sill angle design.

When we come across existing insert vinyl tear outs as opposed to wood sash tear outs we expect rotted wood to the sill and more time and cost involved in the project due to removal of all of the old caulking. Even the disposal fees are more.
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Old 12-06-2014, 05:49 PM   #10
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


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Tom do you use those windows from Allied ? Cutedge. When yousay snap in groove I th ink of those. When you say "L"that drops in I think of the older Metal industry windows. They were cheesy.
I use America Jewel the 1700 or Dorwin because they are close.
no..i usually go with Simonton or Harvey for vinyl units,the groove is pretty standard on welded units, the vinyl L closure was common on mechanically fastened units,your thinking of the old MI with the aluminum L that went in to a groove on the underside of the unit?

when i see the closure not used i bet it's still under the head expander...some guys never look under there
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Old 12-10-2014, 11:16 PM   #11
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


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when i see the closure not used i bet it's still under the head expander...some guys never look under there
Must be hard for those guys to insulate between the window and head expander without looking
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Old 12-11-2014, 11:13 AM   #12
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


Just having to use that expander sucks. It makes a gap in the trim.
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Old 12-11-2014, 11:58 AM   #13
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


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Just having to use that expander sucks. It makes a gap in the trim.
I just scribe the stops around it if we use it.
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Old 12-11-2014, 12:55 PM   #14
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


What tool would you use to do that Eric?
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Old 12-11-2014, 01:02 PM   #15
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


When I measure & order I make the judgment call. I can order exact or use Standard deductions which are normally 1/4" width 1/2 height. If I need more than that it's likely because the frame is shot so then I recommend repairs.
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Old 12-11-2014, 01:03 PM   #16
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


Not that I have never done it but I avoid it.
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Old 12-11-2014, 01:53 PM   #17
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


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What tool would you use to do that Eric?
Depends. Table saw, belt sander, maybe a rasp or hand sander. All depends on how big the bump is.

For example, on an older bronco style window, we peel off the three stops, do all the steps needed to install the window. Then I notch the parts of the side stops that go around the head expander, usually just free hand on the table saw, then rip the top stop to the width of those notches and reinstall.

In some cases, the older windows and stops have so much paint slopped on and may just have old casing around them to the point that an 1/8" gap can just be caulked and end up looking the same for less work. All depends on job conditions, style of window, jambs, casings, etc.
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Old 12-11-2014, 03:48 PM   #18
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


What is a "bronco" window?
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Old 12-11-2014, 04:08 PM   #19
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


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What is a "bronco" window?
It's like a Brosco window after autocorrect gets a hold of it.
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Old 12-11-2014, 04:39 PM   #20
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Re: Vinyl Replacement Windows


What's a Brosco window?

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