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Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!

 
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Old 09-10-2010, 03:19 PM   #1
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Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


Hi all,

I've done a lot of big projects but this one has me concerned.
I will be building a 14'x12" Pergola on a raised concrete patio outside a doorwall. I plan to put a polycarb clear roof on it to protect the furniture underneath from rain as well as adding curtains that can be pulled back on either side for privacy from neighbors. The fact that it is on an already raised surface, is pretty large, and will have added wind resistance due to the roof and curtains that will often be closed (at least on one side) adds to my concern.
I have been looking at various plans and post brackets and am hoping someone can view the link below for both post mount options and layout and advise me on which option is best under the circumstances.

We are on a tight budget for this after what we spent on the new concrete so can't afford Cedar and can't wait for pressure treated to dry out since I'm in Michigan because it will be winter by then.
May use either Kiln- dried Yellow Pine or regular untreated lumber since I will be painting it anyway....(please advise on best option to avoid shriinking/bowing on that too please)
(I had all pictures and options saved neatly to word documents to post but they were too large to attach....Ugh!....Please view the below links instead and I will attach pic of my patio only.
For post mount options go to:
backyardamerica.com/column-attachment.htm

For rafter layout go to:
contractortalk.com/f4/pergola-32042/

I will be using knee braces just like his so it doesn't upstruct view and will use same rafter layout too. Since this one doesnt list size or Pergola or lumber, I am thinking of 2x10's for outer beams and 2x8s for rafters.

I would also like to hear from other people that have attached Pergolas to concrete to see how they have held up and what they used to attach.
Thanks all....Ive been trying to get this started for 2 weeks now..please help!
RDBD
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:59 PM   #2
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


Most pergola projects I've been on aren't an after thought....planning for the pergola should have been done during the concrete phase.

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Old 09-10-2010, 05:03 PM   #3
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


Why would anyone spend money to have a stamped and colored concrete patio, and leave the concrete block alone is missing the big picture.

But I digress, what WNY said - hire a pro!
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Old 09-10-2010, 07:36 PM   #4
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


Wow guys, give me a break here.
This job is for my mother (aka - free labor) and the Pergola is not an "intentional" afterthought. She got the Patio redone last month and for structural reasons, and was so happy with how it turned out that she ended up getting new patio furniture too. She's been constantly covering it when it rains (even though it is outdoor furniture) so I suggested the Pergola as a relatively low cost solution because of what she had already spent. She didn't want to block all of the light from the room that leads out there so that is when I got the idea for the polycarbonate roof on top.

As for the block on the bottom....clearly we aren't finished because as I had explained in my post, this is a new patio. We are still deciding whether to just use an opaque stain over the block, or using portland stucco or quickwall with a colored stain. Since Sherwin Williams will have all of their stains/paints on sale for 40% off at the end of the month, we decided to just do the Pergola in the meantime, and since I also have a business to run, work another job, and am also finishing a degree, I am working on this when I can.

I took her to look at some vinyl post sleeves today that I want to use to protect the 6x6 wood posts instead of spending a fortune on columns, but the rest will be just painted wood. I am mostly concerned about using the best mount for the job considering considering the extra wind issues I mentioned. I guess I could have left the rest of the decisions I'm still making out of it. I was kind of stunned by the replies.
Hoping to still get some advice here.
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Old 09-10-2010, 08:10 PM   #5
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


I've done several free standing pergolas & pavillians. I have a welder make custom post base that go into the concrete when poured, too late for that now tho. You could probably use the same type thing without the J-bolts welded to the base plate bottoms. 1/4" steel plate 12"x12", have two sleeves welded going up the sides of the post about 18" with 3 - 1/2" holes drilled in them for bolts to go thru the post. In your case drill 4 -1/2" holes, one in each corner of the base plate for wedge anchors to be installed into the concrete. I perfer to wrap the bottom of the post with a partial masonry column or wood to cover the post base, but you don't have to if you have a good enough welder.

If you look on my site you can find a pic of a pavillian I built for a neighborhood park back in early 90's. It's still there doing fine & we have some bad storms roll thru here. One of those pics shows those post base pretty well as I did not wrap them.

Those post base are not cheap tho, last ones I had made cost 100.00 a piece, but they will hold up like no other.

Other that you could put handrails between the post to sturdy it up or build knee walls with siding between the post.
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Old 09-10-2010, 08:14 PM   #6
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


Quote:
Originally Posted by RDBD View Post
Wow guys, give me a break here.
This job is for my mother (aka - free labor) and the Pergola is not an "intentional" afterthought. She got the Patio redone last month and for structural reasons, and was so happy with how it turned out that she ended up getting new patio furniture too. She's been constantly covering it when it rains (even though it is outdoor furniture) so I suggested the Pergola as a relatively low cost solution because of what she had already spent. She didn't want to block all of the light from the room that leads out there so that is when I got the idea for the polycarbonate roof on top.

As for the block on the bottom....clearly we aren't finished because as I had explained in my post, this is a new patio. We are still deciding whether to just use an opaque stain over the block, or using portland stucco or quickwall with a colored stain. Since Sherwin Williams will have all of their stains/paints on sale for 40% off at the end of the month, we decided to just do the Pergola in the meantime, and since I also have a business to run, work another job, and am also finishing a degree, I am working on this when I can.

I took her to look at some vinyl post sleeves today that I want to use to protect the 6x6 wood posts instead of spending a fortune on columns, but the rest will be just painted wood. I am mostly concerned about using the best mount for the job considering considering the extra wind issues I mentioned. I guess I could have left the rest of the decisions I'm still making out of it. I was kind of stunned by the replies.
Hoping to still get some advice here.
Is there such a thing as an intentional after thought?........
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Old 09-10-2010, 08:56 PM   #7
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


6x6 posts. In the dirt next to the concrete. 3 2x10 sandwiched with 3/4 ply between them for the beams. Off set your Joints for strength. Then use 1/4 or 1/2 " steel plate up both sides of the posts with bolts like deckman said. 2 bolts in the 6x6 and 2 in the beam.
You can use bamboo rollup shades for walls.
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Old 09-10-2010, 09:13 PM   #8
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


My grandfather taught me this
“A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part”
Either way Saw cut 8” x 8” holes. Dig them as deep as you can 3’ or better. Insert 6x6 and fill with concrete.
I would go with a large column or post with a large base that will cover 8”SQ
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Old 09-10-2010, 09:17 PM   #9
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


Quote:
Originally Posted by deckman22 View Post
You could probably use the same type thing without the J-bolts welded to the base plate bottoms. 1/4" steel plate 12"x12", have two sleeves welded going up the sides of the post about 18" with 3 - 1/2" holes drilled in them for bolts to go thru the post. In your case drill 4 -1/2" holes, one in each corner of the base plate for wedge anchors to be installed into the concrete.
This is the method I'd go for if faced w/ that type of existing patio.

By the way, a pergola is merely a shade structure. What you're talking about is a freestanding roof. Since your posts will be top mounted, be sure to run knee bracing in both lateral directions and don't skimp on the fasteners... the wind will wreak havoc on such a structure if it's not built right.

Sorry you don't like the replies...but know this, this isn't contractor-free-help.com. You're a brand new member who joined simply to get help...for free.
You take what you get, and it's worth every penny you paid.

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Old 09-11-2010, 08:14 AM   #10
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


Why does it seem that deck surface mounted posts are almost the first solution many people head for?

He clearly has 16" of vertical support anywhere around three sides of that patio. Why not anchor posts laterally from their sides into the blocks? This would assume, of course, that those blocks were poured solid.
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Old 09-11-2010, 08:53 AM   #11
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie T View Post
Why does it seem that deck surface mounted posts are almost the first solution many people head for?
'Cuz I didn't spend a lot of time worrying about his project and the absolute best way to build it...that's his job.
'Cuz I've seen CMU blocks crumble and shatter so my first thought wasn't to mount something to them...
'Cuz he'd still be top mounting on the concrete patio on the left side...
'Cuz visually it would look better if the footprint of the roof was contained within the outline of the patio...

but all that being said, mounting to the sides would be another option. It would look more odd and you'd have to beef up the beams and rafters because of the larger spans but it's definitely an option!

I dunno, those custom plates Deckman22 talked about seemed like they'd do the trick just fine... 12" square footprint w/ 18" vertical support of 1/4" steel. That's pretty beefy.

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Old 09-11-2010, 09:03 AM   #12
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


Does it have to be free standing?
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Old 09-11-2010, 09:19 AM   #13
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


Quote:
Originally Posted by RDBD View Post
Hi all,

I've done a lot of big projects but this one has me concerned.
I will be building a 14'x12" Pergola on a raised concrete patio outside a doorwall. I plan to put a polycarb clear roof on it to protect the furniture underneath from rain as well as adding curtains that can be pulled back on either side for privacy from neighbors. The fact that it is on an already raised surface, is pretty large, and will have added wind resistance due to the roof and curtains that will often be closed (at least on one side) adds to my concern.
I have been looking at various plans and post brackets and am hoping someone can view the link below for both post mount options and layout and advise me on which option is best under the circumstances.

We are on a tight budget for this after what we spent on the new concrete so can't afford Cedar and can't wait for pressure treated to dry out since I'm in Michigan because it will be winter by then.
May use either Kiln- dried Yellow Pine or regular untreated lumber since I will be painting it anyway....(please advise on best option to avoid shriinking/bowing on that too please)
(I had all pictures and options saved neatly to word documents to post but they were too large to attach....Ugh!....Please view the below links instead and I will attach pic of my patio only.
For post mount options go to:
backyardamerica.com/column-attachment.htm

For rafter layout go to:
contractortalk.com/f4/pergola-32042/

I will be using knee braces just like his so it doesn't upstruct view and will use same rafter layout too. Since this one doesnt list size or Pergola or lumber, I am thinking of 2x10's for outer beams and 2x8s for rafters.

I would also like to hear from other people that have attached Pergolas to concrete to see how they have held up and what they used to attach.
Thanks all....Ive been trying to get this started for 2 weeks now..please help!
RDBD

We have used the Titan post bases they work good. You can buy the here and they have short how to video below the description. http://www.decksdirect.com/hardware-...st-anchor.html

Cedar would be the best option for staining before you build it, If not I would use Pressure treated and stain it next year. Most any local lumberyard should be able to tell you the span and load requirments for the roof, and post & beam construction.
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Old 09-11-2010, 02:05 PM   #14
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


The blocks were not poured solid, they have the holes and were already in place when the new slab was poured, & they have been left hollow. The orig patio held up well for 20 years so wasn't too concerned about the contractor doing it the same way) The prob with the old slab was sagging by the doorwall, but still in one piece with only a slight hairline crack starting to form. Contractor sd it was probably a prob with the concrete, not the foundation so we had him use both rebar & fiber reinforcement additive in the concrete this time.
Deckman - Your pavillion looks great, but are specially made post mounts really necessary when those look very similar to some of the simpson post mounts assuming I use the ones that attach to the post with bolts (not just nails)? You don't think any of them are adequate? Yours is clearly much heavier than what I'm doing.
Festerized - I can't cut in dig and fill with concrete as the center of the patio is filled with compacted 3/8" and the slab is 4" thick ??

I plan to center my beams so the weight is on the slab directly over the block, and most of the brackets I've looked at are drilled down to about 2 ½ or 3” (not all the way through). This shouldn't be a problem should it? The last thing I need is a good wind catching this thing and ripping up the new concrete.
I can't be the first person doing such a project so just wanted to know what would be the best mount for this situation. I agree that this should have been done when the concrete was added but I couldn't convince her at the time. I really don't want to call the whole thing off, but I'm beginning to wonder if I should.

That last Titan mount mentioned looks good but I wonder about leveling since the patio is sloped for drainage?? Also, a porch is top-supported too but this won't be.

I'll probably try calling Simpson for their advice on which mount they recommend on Monday..possibly Titan too, but if anyone out there can share their experience with what you have used on a Pergola (that wasn't specially made)...and how it's holding up, I'd love to hear from you.
Thanks all.
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Old 09-11-2010, 02:15 PM   #15
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


Quote:
Originally Posted by RDBD View Post
The blocks were not poured solid, they have the holes and were already in place when the new slab was poured, & they have been left hollow. The orig patio held up well for 20 years so wasn't too concerned about the contractor doing it the same way) The prob with the old slab was sagging by the doorwall, but still in one piece with only a slight hairline crack starting to form. Contractor sd it was probably a prob with the concrete, not the foundation so we had him use both rebar & fiber reinforcement additive in the concrete this time.
Deckman - Your pavillion looks great, but are specially made post mounts really necessary when those look very similar to some of the simpson post mounts assuming I use the ones that attach to the post with bolts (not just nails)? You don't think any of them are adequate? Yours is clearly much heavier than what I'm doing.
Festerized - I can't cut in dig and fill with concrete as the center of the patio is filled with compacted 3/8" and the slab is 4" thick ??

I plan to center my beams so the weight is on the slab directly over the block, and most of the brackets I've looked at are drilled down to about 2 ½ or 3” (not all the way through). This shouldn't be a problem should it? The last thing I need is a good wind catching this thing and ripping up the new concrete.
I can't be the first person doing such a project so just wanted to know what would be the best mount for this situation. I agree that this should have been done when the concrete was added but I couldn't convince her at the time. I really don't want to call the whole thing off, but I'm beginning to wonder if I should.

That last Titan mount mentioned looks good but I wonder about leveling since the patio is sloped for drainage?? Also, a porch is top-supported too but this won't be.

I'll probably try calling Simpson for their advice on which mount they recommend on Monday..possibly Titan too, but if anyone out there can share their experience with what you have used on a Pergola (that wasn't specially made)...and how it's holding up, I'd love to hear from you.
Thanks all.
Cutting thru 4” of concrete is possible. I used a 7 ¼” worm drive saw with a diamond blade. Then I drilled ¾” holes with my bocsh hammer drill, at the corners and made an “x”. The holes will give a snapping point and allow concrete to collapse into itself. Switch over to a round chisel blade and remove concrete.
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Old 09-11-2010, 06:44 PM   #16
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


Simpson makes some post base that are somewhat similar, but compared to those custom made ones, they are wimpy. Use the simpson ones & you'll be one here asking how to shore up your mom's deal cause it's swaying around with the breeze.

Do what you want I don't care, it's your mom's house not mine.
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:24 PM   #17
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


Wow.....I'm really beginning to think I should forget the whole thing.
I never imagined this would be so difficult & would have thought that there were many out there who have done something similar without spending $400 on special made brackets. That blows almost 1/2 of what she had budgeted for this whole project.
Festerized - I'm sure that cutting a hole that size through is possible but there is no way she would go for such huge holes in her new patio.
Deckman - you mentioned 1/2' holes for the bolt down but how deep did you go in and what type of bolts/tapcons did u use?
I appreciate the advice....guess I'll have to sleep on this a bit more.
I sure hope we can come up with a workable solution...I'd really hate to call this off but don't want to ruin the patio either.
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:26 PM   #18
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


Festerized - I forgot to say....Beautiful job on the Pergola/bar! It looks like it's on a wood deck, not concrete though?
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:49 PM   #19
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


Nope, It’s on a 10’ x 10’ concrete slab, we put sleepers over the crete then applied decking
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Old 09-23-2010, 05:32 PM   #20
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Re: Building Detached Pergola On Concrete, Need Advice!


I looked at one today that had this for a connection detail



ML
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