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Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage

 
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Old 01-13-2013, 07:54 AM   #1
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Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


http://articles.philly.com/2013-01-0...nunion-workers

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Old 01-13-2013, 08:32 AM   #2
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


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What the he** is with some union people! They get mad because someone doesn't want to pay there inflated prices and stomp around like a bunch of babies. Then destroy something because they cant have it. This is ludacris

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Old 01-13-2013, 09:01 AM   #3
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


welcome to philadelphia. The problem is that the police (union) wolnt respond/ care and the insurance companies will end up jacking the rates to cover the losses. Who do you think pays for that?

This happens more often then not and it is rarely reported or makes news.

Besides the other obvious problems such as ARSON.
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Old 01-13-2013, 09:45 AM   #4
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


That's the union.

I've told this story before, but back in the early 00's I was awarded work on a renovation of an old Hecht company at a Mall. My contract was to demolish all the split faced block veneer and install the curtain wall for the new storefront including installation of all exterior structural studs and welding of all deflection clips and steel to concrete shelf angles.

The majority of the work was union, aside from myself, the roofer and a glass/glazing contractor.

During the renovation the new Macy's decided they wanted a change order to change the new exterior to a new thin brick veneer on the outside in lieu of powerwashing and painting the CMU. Due to budget constraints the CM competitively bid the work instead of simply awarding it to the union mason that was doing the elevator shafts and miscellaneous work inside.

They wound up awarding it to a non union mason who was close to $10,000 cheaper. ALL the union workers were pissed about that, not just the masons.

About a week prior to this happening, I remember delivering materials one day just before lunch to the guys and it was hot as hell outside and they went inside to break. Three union foreman, who felt our work bordered on the interior division 9 work they were performing came up to all of us and said word for word "this will be the only day you will eat in here, and count your blessings your working outside. If you were working any of the carpentry you'd be in trouble". What we were doing WAS and IS carpentry. Commercial carpentry. I guess since we also had Miller mig's in our hands we were 'borderline'?!?

They and I had words but wanting to finish the project and move on we went about our business.

The non union company began work about two weeks before we finished the curtain wall construction. They were three hispanic fellows working on a boom outside. I do believe they were legal to my limited knowledge. Words were said in the beginning that they had better pack it up before something happened, but the workers didn't understand much and their foreman who did speak well just told the union men to move along. About a week into their project they broke for lunch and went inside to the food court.

They came back...went up on the boom...and came right back down...FAST.

One died. One was permanently paralyzed, and the other sustained non life threatening injuries. Jobsite shut down for close to a month.

Everyone on the project was questioned, my men and I included. When questioned, it had been found that the hydraulic break lines were cut and leaked out and the lift (older, company owned JLC) had no secondary line of defense. Pictures showed the cut was brand new versus several older line breaks in both side by side comparisons and side tests done on sacrificial brake lines.

Everyone knew who did it, but no one spoke a word. 200 union men on the jobsite from all different trades and not one would talk to police. Simply said I was on lunch and didn't see anything.

We all gave our account of what happened at the time of the accident since we were 40 feet away but they said and we knew they wanted evidence, and no one would corroborate the story of the union intimidation when they first started. Off the record the detective told me he was fully in belief that it was at least two of the union guys on site, based on how they were acting and similar non deadly cases like this in his career, but who out of the 200 he didn't know and couldn't build a case on 5 non union workers(the amount of men I had on the job at the time of incident) "hearsay".

One month later and we are finally back on site. My men are finishing up and I am standing inside the entrance with the glass guy going over our job and making sure he has everything he needs from us to start his work.

You'd think it would be a somber site given the reason we all left for the month, but it was the opposite. They were all happy as can be.

As I was finishing up with the glass guy two of the interior guys walk by laughing while one guy says to the other "****ing scabs got what they deserved. Good riddance to scum."

Sad end over the loss of an exterior veneer job to a non union company.
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:11 AM   #5
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


Sad example of why unions are useless nowadays.

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Old 01-13-2013, 10:53 AM   #6
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


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Sad example of why unions are useless nowadays.
I see you edited. Lol.

But I came to your earlier conclusion after I was inadvertently a part of that awful incident.
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Old 01-13-2013, 04:58 PM   #7
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


The only thing the union does around here is walk in a circle with signs and wistles once a a week for 2 hours.... Lol and the dont even block entrances...
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:45 PM   #8
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


Funny, but anytime I see anyone "working" on the roads, there are always at least 1/2 of them are just standing around. IDOT "Illinois Dept of Transportation" was repairing 1 or 2 small potholes near by the other day. 8 guys there with 3-4 trucks and 2 guys barely "working".
I can't believe this state is so badly in the red.
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:55 PM   #9
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


I just saw 3 dpw workers fixing a small pothole with cold patch. it was a one man job. Im glad my tax dollars are going to waste.

Towns are the problem. They waste there budgets and ask for higher ones the follwing year. If they actually save money there scated they wont give them a higher budget.

And there not union dpw workers so u cant blame it on the unions...
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:51 PM   #10
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


Yet another good reason to stay away from unions. My brother was/is pro union, he worked for GM here for many years until they closed. One time they went on strike because "they are working us too many hours". I just about fell on the floor.
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:52 PM   #11
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


They attacked a church...you don't attack churches.

And the Quakers....they are such a quiet and pacifist group.


It's just my humble opinion (I'm not humble enough for anyone to mistake me for a Quaker) but I personally believe that this is bull****.
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Old 01-16-2013, 04:52 PM   #12
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


I call absolute BS, you have no evidence and you throw blame.......Trade unions are different than manufacturing, and the afscme. If those guys didnt speak english they werent citizens. shouldnt be here.

you bitch about the unions but if it werent for unions the private sector pay would be less.

half of the non-union companies dont provide the training to their employees to do the proper work.

Both of these stories are complete hear say and union bashing,
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:18 PM   #13
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


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I call absolute BS, you have no evidence and you throw blame.......Trade unions are different than manufacturing, and the afscme. If those guys didnt speak english they werent citizens. shouldnt be here.

you bitch about the unions but if it werent for unions the private sector pay would be less.

half of the non-union companies dont provide the training to their employees to do the proper work.

Both of these stories are complete hear say and union bashing,

Teachers unions clearly aren't what they used to be.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:32 PM   #14
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


Evidence is in the eye of the beholder
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:32 PM   #15
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


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I call absolute BS, you have no evidence and you throw blame.......Trade unions are different than manufacturing, and the afscme. If those guys didnt speak english they werent citizens. shouldnt be here.you bitch about the unions but if it werent for unions the private sector pay would be less.

half of the non-union companies dont provide the training to their employees to do the proper work.
Both of these stories are complete hear say and union bashing,
you clearly dont know how the union operates in philadelphia.

senario: quaker church puts out bids for the steel work/construction. union and non union companys bid on the work. job gets awarded to the non union company. steel beams are torched and a crane is torched as well. WHO DO YOU THINK DID IT?

I HAVE SEEN FIRST HAND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PROPERTY DAMAGE DONE TO NON UNION COMPANIES EQUIPMENT/JOBSITES IN THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA FOR NOT USING UNION LABOR.

Non union companys rely on hireing people who are experienced to complete their work. They dont have to teach them on the job.

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Old 01-16-2013, 08:40 PM   #16
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


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you clearly dont know how the union operates in philadelphia.

senario: quaker church puts out bids for the steel work/construction. union and non union companys bid on the work. job gets awarded to the non union company. steel beams are torched and a crane is torched as well. WHO DO YOU THINK DID IT?

I HAVE SEEN FIRST HAND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PROPERTY DAMAGE DONE TO NON UNION COMPANIES EQUIPMENT/JOBSITES IN THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA FOR NOT USING UNION LABOR.

Non union companys rely on hireing people who are experienced to complete their work. They dont have to teach them on the job.
You don't know what you ar talking about. If you are non-union, you can't possibly know how to do anything!!!
Funny, but of all the carpenters that I know, the lowest quality ones are union, the best ones are non union. Now I am not saying that all union carpenters are crap, but the ones I know and all the companies I see around do a horrible job.
The best plumber that I have seen, is union. He also is not the

"Unions are the best thing ever! If you say anything bad about the unions, I am going to get butt-hurt and cry!" union worker like someone above here
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:44 AM   #17
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


Unions don't cut the hydraulic line of a PEWP. Murderous criminals do. If tradesmen in Philadelphia murder their brothers they aren't following any union constitution.

"The union" only exists on paper. The members are "the union". If union members in Philly kill and maim their brothers then I would look more closely at the culture and character of the tradesmen in Philly and if the guys on that job who know who sabotaged the PEWP and did nothing have to look at themselves in the mirror every day and see a coward. I don't for a minute believe that all my brothers in Philly are murderous criminals and cowards, I've met a few and they were honest stand up guys of good character but obviously if this story is true then there are some bad apples in the barrel. It happens in every local, we turfed an apprentice last week who's mom was paying his dues while he was in prison and would have to do that for a few more years because he was denied parole. We don't want guys like that, he can work non union. I know in our local no one would tolerate sabotage. Those non union guys who went up on that PEWP and got hurt were our brothers not our enemies and the victim of a crime perpetrated by criminals who should be locked up.

I can't speak for my brothers in Philly but I know in my neck of the woods our business reps all have remote starters for their trucks and have been assaulted, tires slashed, property vandalized, wives and children threatened and it isn't the brothers in Philly that are doing this. Assholes are assholes, criminals are criminals. It's the same all over the world, union or non-union. Frankly I would like to see a little more brotherhood in the trade.

As far as the myth of the lazy fat cat union member. We have a market share of about 12% and the only union protection we have is a single shopping mall. Our contractors bid on the open market and win jobs against non union contractors. Our guys get at least 20% more in their pay cheque plus $5/hr in their pension and full bennies and they can still compete with non union trades. We have a lot of union subs working for non union GC's.

Our GC's are on record as being against busting the unions because we treat them as our partners and work with them. We offer over 70 courses ranging from basic literacy and math to construction management all free to union members. My full time job is to work with the contractors, colleges and suppliers and tailor training to their specific needs. We even hold workshops and product demos for the contractors management and estimators in our training facility. I can't speak for what goes on in Philly, NYC or Hong Kong but I know our UBC local is fit, trim and kicking ass.

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Old 01-18-2013, 07:15 AM   #18
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


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Non union companys rely on hireing people who are experienced to complete their work. They dont have to teach them on the job.
Continuing education built on a solid base of apprenticeship is going to be come increasingly important going forward. We (UBC) dropped to a low of 9% market share locally in 2005 to 9% today and have doubled the size of our local. It's not a coincidence that we also invested in a training center in 2005. We've just moved into a brand new $10m training facility and I've been meeting with contractors, government ministries and colleges who are approaching us about partnering in training. We already have plans to double the size of our facility to meet demand that is way above our expectations.

At the same time the UBC is adding 200,000 SF of training floor to their already huge training center in las Vegas where us UBC trainers go to learn to teach https://www.carpenters.org/todays_ub.../ITC_Main.aspx

Hold onto that thought that you don't need training and you can learn everything on the job i9n today's construction market. There will always be a market for those kind of guys but it won't be as highly skilled tradesmen. It will be competing with illegals for increasingly less wages banging together tract houses, working as residential drywall board men, shinglers and residential renovations. The high paying industrial trades jobs are going to require increasingly highly trained tradesmen and those tradesmen will have to learn continuously to keep up with the ever changing pace of technology.

This is the modern reality of working in the trades. It used to be construction trades could make a good wage with a strong back and a work ethic. Those days are gone, the semi skilled will compete on a Walmart level of wages with a vast army of other semi skilled workers while highly skilled workers will be in demand and make good money. The average age of a skilled tradesman in Canada is 55 years old and right now we can put to work 10,000 qualified carpenters http://www.red-seal.ca/[email protected]?lang=eng with the demand growing every year. The situation isn't quite as urgent in the USA but it's pretty dam close.
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:33 AM   #19
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


I'll give you some of your argument on the union as correct, we do have a lot of union bashing going on, and rightfully so, I categorize them like the Nazi's and the Muslim's!, as a matter of fact I can throw a few Christians into the heap as well. The above groups have/had their followings and most were dormant, quiet, went on with life people. However, there was the few that have given the majority of them a bad name. I don't think it is necessary for me to name names in the political or religious sects as I am sure most of us here can now see the point I am making.

The lazy fat cat union member you speak of is not a myth, it is reality, they exist, day in, day out. The issue you run into is union protection and the lazy fat cat relies on his union rep to cover his ass based on the contracts that have such clauses for non-firing involved. Example, Molson Breweries could not fire someone for stealing beer from the factory while working, Barrie, ON, 1987. TTC could not fire someone for driving a city bus intoxicated during rush hour full of passengers, Toronto, ON, 1993, National Grocers could not dismiss an employee for being late/missing shifts greater than 55% of the year, Newmarket, 1982. And these are just examples I am personally familiar with. So before you start spouting off that this doesn't exist, it does, I have seen it, and I am sure many other members on here have their own recollections of lazy fat cats in the union.

If any of those incidents happened in the private non-union sector, namely my company, which I own and operate and have full responsibility for...the guys getting fired, no if ands or buts about it.

The union has a hall, yes, so if contractor A needs workers, he can call the hall and have workers relatively quickly with one phone call. If I get a surge in work and need workers, I may need to make 6 - 10 calls, but will get the same results. Neither the union company or myself are guaranteed the quality of workmanship from outsourced workers.

The union has a training facility, I do all my training between my office and mostly in the field...where reality takes place and the reality is, nothing we build is the same as it looks on paper, everything looks easy on paper but job site conditions can dictate another story. Hell, I remember getting matchbooks and on the inside cover was an offer for me to be anything I wanted, just mail a SASE to Box 123, any town, any province, Canada, 1A1 A1A. I know one guy who did this and became a licensed mechanic without ever going to a classroom.

The unions had there place, they did create proper workplace ethics and safety...50 plus years ago...we accept that, we follow the rules and regulations of what they did for us, but now that all that has taken place, we don't need them anymore and they know it, so on now with the scare tactics.

Is there corruption in the unions, damn right there is

http://news.ca.msn.com/local/toronto...-says-2#scptid

And it's stories like this that tell us why the Gov't of Canada is standing up against unions and calling them gangs, and why our Gov't is pushing through policy that unions have to open up and show them where the money is coming from. I look forward to our Senate finishing this for everyone to see the corruption.

And just to add fuel to the fire, our Prov. Gov't enacted Bill 115, teachers cannot strike, along with a series of other rules. It's creating havoc here, my kids are currently learning the square root of nothing. I could turn this into a huge topic and opinion, but briefly...these teachers seem to forget it's the 11 million plus people in Ontario who pay taxes to pay their wages, they get payed from public funds, I fund it and the union agreement is out of line as far as I am concerned and most who actually read and understand it.

Shortage of Tradesmen in Canada, yes, just like many other areas in the free world, the industrial revolution is dead, now you have thousands of kids graduating university yearly competing for 10 jobs in the tech field. Our Gov't realizes this and is finally promoting the trades...and loosening the entry requirements, english apparently doesn't have to be good, just be a tradesmen and we can get you in!

If you want to discuss wages...let me know, but I do know I pay higher then the norm, that's why union workers call me for work
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Old 01-18-2013, 05:01 PM   #20
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Re: Non Union Jobsite (quaker Church)vandalized In Philadelphia $500,000 Damage


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I'll give you some of your argument on the union as correct, we do have a lot of union bashing going on, a
You dont know what your talking about, those unions you site are not trade unions, first. Second if you dont do what is in the contract documents then your negligent and should be sued for non-compliance to the same documents.

Your full of stuff. to be nice about it. You have no Idea about million dollar projects with 700 page specs, and 300 page drawings. You may be able to build a custom porch or even a house. But when someone designs something that has to be built who does it, you and your trained in the truck crew or a crew that has been trained and certified by the manufacturer to install their product,.....and actually get a warranty out of it too.

Your talking out of an area of your body that needs to be wiped. I personally would stack up my skills against you any day, and I could bring a crew of union carpenters against yours any day and complete all inspections, do it safer, and under budget, without f'ng over my guys.

Oh and by the way, I run work in the Union, if I dont like the way you look I will fire you on the spot, I hate hippies, long hair your fired, stupid earings in lips or brows, fired. I dont give a f$*k you look and act like a profesional carpenter or you hit the road. Business agents can kiss my ass, I have been brought up on charges in the Union, I'm still here.......

Like I stated above in a post I have been doing this over 30 years now, granted most Union carpenters aren't great at resi work. Thats true, but your systematic bs about something you know nothing about is crap

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