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Done Messed Up.......

 
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Old 08-07-2009, 09:35 PM   #21
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


Done messed up.......-001.jpg

Done messed up.......-002.jpg

Done messed up.......-004.jpg
First pic is above the deck Below the deck the wood and osb was wet. Pic above the deck is dry.( Don't know if it's mold though, it's black but does'nt leave much of a black residue on the finger when rubbing it.)

Second and third pic. The white under the ledger is whats left of the cedar rip. No tyvek behind the ledger.

The rip underneath the ledger had a boatload of caulk applied so I don't think it was wicking up.

Did'nt take a pic but the vent is not the problem. Main source of water is coming from behind the ledger at the joist to the right of the vent.
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Old 08-07-2009, 09:49 PM   #22
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


i try to get a metal z behind the ledger when i have siding under the deck
i hold it down alittle from the ledger to help keep water from wicking,then i work the siding up into it
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Old 08-07-2009, 10:04 PM   #23
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


Done messed up.......-014.jpg

Done messed up.......-019.jpg
Knife is bottomed out. Where the bottom jamb of the wood starts. I know it is caulked but probably right above the ledger. This gap would probably not introduce this much water.
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Old 08-07-2009, 10:54 PM   #24
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


Ya know I have to say that this is embarassing for me. Been A framer all of my life. The whole house is great except for this lower and upper wall. (which was balloon framed).. 2x6 framing, log siding, log siding on the inside. Drywall in the walkout basement. The rest of the house is built different.

We all want to look good in front of our peers. And I will get to the bottom of this. But if someone learns from this then it's good !
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Old 08-08-2009, 12:47 AM   #25
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


Many years ago I used to build lake homes that were similar to the one you’re repairing. I never used the ledger method to attach the decks. We ran the joists over the plate and installed blocking out far enough to butt trim to and still have a caulk-able reveal drip line. We’d keep a 3” to 4” step-down (typically 2x12 floor joists with treated 2x8 at the deck, or some dimensional combination with a step) from the floor to deck and run 6x6 flashing to place the drip edge out away from the wall under the deck boards and bent and sealed at the thresholds. This also keeps a hard blowing pooling rain from getting in the flashing lines, front of the doors at the floor height on the deck. Our siding was held up off the deck an inch and a half to prevent wicking too.

IMO, I think you may have pooling leaks during heavy rains in front of the doors. If it were getting in every time it rained for the last nine years I would expect to see even more severe damage than you have.

Good luck with your repair. It does not look like it’s going to be a real easy fix, but it’s Very Big of You.

I’d flash with 6x6 and Seal the thresholds really good. Use NP-1.
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Old 08-08-2009, 01:48 AM   #26
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


I have a question for you. Since you will once again need to use a water barrier, how do you plan on reattaching it? Are you going to take all doors out and windows out of the effected area? Or are you going to run it to under the trim?
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Old 08-08-2009, 02:27 AM   #27
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


Strathd, thanks for sharing this.

This log siding, what is the design? By that I mean how does it shed water? just thinking out loud (typing) but if there is a lot of water running down that wall from the deck above and the log siding isn't doing it's job, and perhaps your boys were overzealous with the staples in the wrap?

I caught a guy once using cracked cedar bevel siding because "it was under the deck and wouldn't get very wet, so we used all the worst pieces here". Who is it that has the sig "go sit in the truck, I'll do it"?

Hope it works out for you, just trying to figure it.
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Old 08-08-2009, 07:50 AM   #28
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


Quote:
Originally Posted by reveivl View Post
I caught a guy once using cracked cedar bevel siding because "it was under the deck and wouldn't get very wet, so we used all the worst pieces here". Who is it that has the sig "go sit in the truck, I'll do it"?

Hope it works out for you, just trying to figure it.
That would be me and situations like what you described are what made me do it myself and send them to the unemployment line.
Whoever coined the phrase "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" must have been in the trades.
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Old 08-08-2009, 08:17 AM   #29
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


Birch got it right, you have no flashing above the ledger, minimum 4x5 or better yet the 6x6 there with your tar paper lapping over flashing.


The more I look at the more I think that log siding is part of the problem. Does that have some kind of lip where the top overlaps the bottom one?
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Old 08-08-2009, 09:34 AM   #30
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


Quote:
Originally Posted by deckman22 View Post
Birch got it right, you have no flashing above the ledger, minimum 4x5 or better yet the 6x6 there with your tar paper lapping over flashing.


The more I look at the more I think that log siding is part of the problem. Does that have some kind of lip where the top overlaps the bottom one?
Yes it has the lip.
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Old 08-08-2009, 09:46 PM   #31
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


i hate the deck/house connections
for taking care of your customers Strat
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Old 08-09-2009, 05:05 AM   #32
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


I always try to shim my ledgers off the house so if water gets behind them it can continue to run down. and I lap the felt or tyvek onto the ledger flashing at the top. I've used pvc pipe for spacers and aluminum and stainless channel.
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Old 08-09-2009, 08:13 AM   #33
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


I got to looking at the pic above the deck. What in your opinion is happening there? Do you think the OSB is wicking moisture from the deck? Is there a leak further up? Or is the moisture trapped behind the Tyvek from the ledger problem then causing mold on the surface of the OSB? It occurs to me that there is very little "breathing" with that type of siding and that could a contributing factor here. Other than Tyvek not doing what it advertises, which is a can of worms for a different thread. How far does the black mold go up the face of the wall?
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Old 08-09-2009, 08:36 AM   #34
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


Quote:
Originally Posted by paulie View Post
I got to looking at the pic above the deck. What in your opinion is happening there? Do you think the OSB is wicking moisture from the deck? Is there a leak further up? Or is the moisture trapped behind the Tyvek from the ledger problem then causing mold on the surface of the OSB? It occurs to me that there is very little "breathing" with that type of siding and that could a contributing factor here. Other than Tyvek not doing what it advertises, which is a can of worms for a different thread. How far does the black mold go up the face of the wall?
I agree that with log siding, you will most likely experience moisture migration from both directions, according to seasonal variations. I don't know in this case whether felt paper would have had a profoundly different outcome, but a product like homeslicker, may have at least allowed a more rapid drying cycle and I believe felt paper would also work favorably to speed drying. That being said, I have seen wall assemblies over and over done exactly as Strat has here. I think people were too trusting in the housewrap products and believed that they would do as advertised and last indefinitely. I believe that they have failed on both counts.
Water just happens to be ruthless and indifferent. You can wash your backside with water and water won't care. We may well play the trial and error game to prevent moisture intrusion for the next 1000 years. There are just too many variables that affect the effect of water. It is likely that what works on the South side of a structure will be detrimental to the North side and so, on with the fight..........
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Old 08-09-2009, 09:29 AM   #35
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


I agree Lone. It's a never ending fight. But I still am curious about what's going on above the deck. Do you think installing a Aztec or Hardie board base trim then Z flash that would help the wicking/migration of the moisture?

Last edited by Paulie; 08-09-2009 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:29 AM   #36
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


In reference to the pic above the deck the doors are double doors. So that small section of wall is the only part of the wall that goes to the deck. The rest of the wall is all door. When I took the siding off above the deck the housewrap did not overlap the flashing. (what little there is). That flashing is the same height of the flashing that goes under the double doors.

If you look close at the pic you will see white staining about 3" above the ledger on the left to about 1 1/2 on the right. I should have took a pic before I took the wrap off but I was a little pissed at the time. That is where the housewrap was cut. Probably to get the flashing on. Then left and covered.

At this point I'm guessing this area and underneath the doors is the problem. What I don't get is the black spots on the osb above the ledger. I'm hoping the osb is absorbing the water upward ? I don't know. There is no damage. I'm thinking it might be mold from the moisture below it keeping it moist in there.

Ya know when I'm framing a house I can work and watch four guys at the same time. Usually catching them before they mess something up. When the siding was going up I was dealing with plumbers, electricians, burglar alarm installers (or whatever you call those guys). HO was there everyday (allthough she was great). There were many days that I did'nt even put my bags on. Spent the whole day answering questions as the other trades were'nt familiar with log homes. This was my second. Oh well thats enough excuses.

I will be digging under the doors tommorow. I'll be back.
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:34 AM   #37
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


Quote:
Originally Posted by paulie View Post
I agree Lone. It's a never ending fight. But I still am curious about what's going on above the deck. Do you think installing a Aztec or Hardie board base trim then Z flash that would help the wicking/migration of the moisture?
You mean something like this?
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Last edited by loneframer; 08-15-2009 at 05:52 AM.
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:41 AM   #38
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


Quote:
Originally Posted by paulie View Post
I got to looking at the pic above the deck. What in your opinion is happening there? Do you think the OSB is wicking moisture from the deck? Is there a leak further up? Or is the moisture trapped behind the Tyvek from the ledger problem then causing mold on the surface of the OSB? It occurs to me that there is very little "breathing" with that type of siding and that could a contributing factor here. Other than Tyvek not doing what it advertises, which is a can of worms for a different thread. How far does the black mold go up the face of the wall?
I don't know how far up the mold goes yet. But if water is coming from the upper wall Im screwed. The wall is 26' tall.
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:51 AM   #39
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


Have you ever heard Murphy’s Law, “Just because they make it doesn’t mean it works”? On the other hand, if not used right it, may never work.

I think Loneframer’s last post is one of the best so far. This is an old debate on the forums too. I suggest searching the net for as much related information as you can bear to read.

I’ve always tried to emphasize to my builder clients that sole reliance on House Wrap (or similar products) for water intrusion protection is not recommended. They would often unbelievably eliminate typical flashing details that would not have been deleted if they were not using these products. It has created some “Boneheaded Standards” in the industry and there are masses of ‘B S’ victims, past, present, and future, created from ignorance.

The truth is, “Buyer Beware”. I have a high regard for strathd for not playing the victim in this repair, after all, he is the one who ultimately answers to his customer for the issue and from what I see, he is doing just so.

I don’t really know if the House Wraps have lived up too, or not, their advertised claims. I do believe that a lot of people have assumed that these products will perform in ways they do not.

Ultimately, I have to build as told, but I’ve always tried to express concerns for building practices that often will create catastrophic decay issues due to improper reliance on house-wraps. That way I can charge them to fix it when they call me back on it. I will add that the most common occurrence I see is on my framed structures are not things done under my direction, but by the subsequent subs, usually the stucco sub and the masons, concerning masonry wanes coat walls with stucco above.

It also seems that most of these builders are doing the same exact things because that is how their competitors are doing it, thus, the Boneheaded Standards continue to spread.
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Old 08-09-2009, 11:26 AM   #40
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Re: Done Messed Up.......


Quote:
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You mean something like this?

Yup.

I agree with Lone on several issues including how it was put up, I see it all the time too, I'm by no means trying to find fault Strat. The fact you came back and addressed this issue shows your commendable business ethic.

I'm just trying to help with a different set of eyes maybe offer a constructive solution or alternative.

As for house wrap and it's failings, that's a debate that rages on several other active threads.

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