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-   -   California burning again... (https://www.contractortalk.com/f22/california-burning-again-412997/)

hdavis 11-21-2018 12:29 PM

Careful, there is a lot of cash crop in that smoke.

hdavis 11-22-2018 12:40 AM

An LA newspaper has an interesting article on the Paradise burning. The expert pointed out that it was structure fires, when one goes, many more go. They also talked about defensible space needing to be 100 ft around a structure, which means in a town your neighbors are part of your defensible space.

He said the fire in Paradise was very hot, but very fast moving, leaving unburnt tree canopies.

Seven-Delta-FortyOne 11-22-2018 11:49 AM

There is another interesting dynamic with all the loss from wildfires these days.

Wildland has always burned. Always will.

Managed forests do not burn nearly as much.

Farmland doesn't burn at all. :blink:

For the first time in 6,000 years of human history, people are living in the wilderness, yet NOT FARMING. It's never happened before.

Historically, if you moved to an area, the first thing that was done was land was cleared, animals were sent out to pasture, and a community was established.

Now, we have a town with 30,000 people, and there is just a town, and wilderness. No farming. The fact that we can have a town with 30,000, or 10 million people, and zero agriculture within close proximity, is not a historical norm.

One of the best forest management techniques is grazing. A herd of goats will clear an unbelievable amount of underbrush and "ladder fuels".

In fact, they are so efficient at this task, that it can easily go the other way, and you can actually overgraze forest, to the point where goats will damage the forest.

And when I talk about farming, I'm not referring to the atrocity of Agri-business "farming". :blink:

I'm talking about small family farms, the historical norm. A healthy agricultural endeavor cannot be mono-cropped. Diversity is essential. A mix of field crops, cows, goats, sheep, timberland, gardens, and dwellings.

But it seems the country is going the opposite direction. Mega-cities, and wilderness.

So this situation will only get worse.

Peter_C 11-22-2018 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Post 7415139)
Managed forests do not burn nearly as much.

:thumbsup:
http://www.treefarmpromos.com/froot/...ogo%20copy.jpg
Quote:

Originally Posted by Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Post 7415139)
Farmland doesn't burn at all. :blink:

Except wheat, rye, oats (Cali hills are filled with oats), barely, etc. I have seen Steven's wheat 6ft tall burn faster than you can ever imagine.

But yes a lettuce crop won't burn very well. :laughing:

Calidecks 11-22-2018 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_C (Post 7415243)
:thumbsup:

http://www.treefarmpromos.com/froot/...ogo%20copy.jpg

Except wheat, rye, oats (Cali hills are filled with oats), barely, etc. I have seen Steven's wheat 6ft tall burn faster than you can ever imagine.



But yes a lettuce crop won't burn very well. :laughing:



There's a huge difference between a crop of low lying oats and a forest of dead trees. It's not even close to the same thing.


Mike.
_______________
[emoji631] [emoji631]

WarnerConstInc. 11-22-2018 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Californiadecks (Post 7415289)
There's a huge difference between a crop of low lying oats and a forest of dead trees. It's not even close to the same thing.


Mike.
_______________
[emoji631] [emoji631]

The field will burn much faster.

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Calidecks 11-22-2018 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarnerConstInc. (Post 7415295)
The field will burn much faster.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk



Exactly. With less chance of spreading miles away from just one ember. A tree that's 50 foot tall is much different dynamic. There is no safe fire but a forest fire not only has the trees but the brush below that compounds the problems.




Mike.
_______________
[emoji631] [emoji631]

Seven-Delta-FortyOne 11-22-2018 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarnerConstInc. (Post 7415295)
The field will burn much faster.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Yes.

But on a homestead or farmstead, it is broken up.

You might have 5 acres or wheat, and 40 acres of timber, that you run goats through, and 20 acres of grass for cows, and a few acres of gardens, etc.

And then there are roads going through the area, and cleared fence lines, and on and on.

So you don't have nearly the opportunity for massive, unchecked wildfire.

Just from a historical perspective, homesteads have not traditionally burned, even in timber country.

hdavis 11-22-2018 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_C (Post 7415243)
:thumbsup:
http://www.treefarmpromos.com/froot/...ogo%20copy.jpg
Except wheat, rye, oats (Cali hills are filled with oats), barely, etc. I have seen Steven's wheat 6ft tall burn faster than you can ever imagine.

But yes a lettuce crop won't burn very well. :laughing:

Interestingly, a fast moving forest fire or field fire is much less likely to ignite structure fires-

unless there is flammible material near the structure.

That was one of the points of the pine canopy not catching fire, radiant heat wasn't bad enough long enough to catch buildings on fire.

Rio 11-23-2018 05:41 PM

It turns out that 'traffic calming', which is a technique being used by California to help force people out of their cars in part, reduced the number of escape lanes from 4 to 2 in Paradise.

The number of lanes on the road there had been 2 until there was a major fire in 2008 in the same area when it was increased to 4. Recently that number was once again reduced to 2 lanes. Turns out they should have studied the history of that area more, fires there are as common as the trees that abound. The official story is 'it wouldn't have made any difference anyway'.

Imagine being stuck in your car waiting to be incinerated while looking at the traffic calming borders that took away the other two lanes.

hdavis 11-23-2018 06:15 PM

I read that, too.

Seven-Delta-FortyOne 11-23-2018 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rio (Post 7416013)
It turns out that 'traffic calming', which is a technique being used by California to help force people out of their cars in part, reduced the number of escape lanes from 4 to 2 in Paradise.

The number of lanes on the road there had been 2 until there was a major fire in 2008 in the same area when it was increased to 4. Recently that number was once again reduced to 2 lanes. Turns out they should have studied the history of that area more, fires there are as common as the trees that abound. The official story is 'it wouldn't have made any difference anyway'.

Imagine being stuck in your car waiting to be incinerated while looking at the traffic calming borders that took away the other two lanes.


What did they use to block the lanes?

Unless it was K-Rail, I'm pretty sure it would have fallen victim to my diesel flatbed, had I been there. :blink:

griz 11-23-2018 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Post 7416211)
What did they use to block the lanes?

Unless it was K-Rail, I'm pretty sure it would have fallen victim to my diesel flatbed, had I been there. :blink:

they poured bump out curbs to block access to the traffic lane then made the old lanes on street parking.

it was a political fuster cluck and should have never happened...

Peter_C 11-23-2018 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Post 7415307)
Yes.

But on a homestead or farmstead, it is broken up.

You might have 5 acres or wheat, ~

5 acres :laughing: That isn't even worth planting. Leave it as a pasture. 20 acres is kinda a minimum or you can't run the combine in circles. We had a tract that was 2,000 acres. You wouldn't see the combine for an hour and it would come in over filled.

Now Paradise is faced with the extreme other side of nature. Rain! The damage continues.

dayexco 11-23-2018 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_C (Post 7416225)
5 acres :laughing: That isn't even worth planting. Leave it as a pasture. 20 acres is kinda a minimum or you can't run the combine in circles. We had a tract that was 2,000 acres. You wouldn't see the combine for an hour and it would come in over filled.

Now Paradise is faced with the extreme other side of nature. Rain! The damage continues.

One piece 2k tract in Indiana? You're talking huge money there. That's 3.5 sections in one piece.

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Peter_C 11-24-2018 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dayexco (Post 7416235)
One piece 2k tract in Indiana? You're talking huge money there. That's 3.5 sections in one piece.

Oregon, we used to plant around 10,000 acres via crop sharing. Had a big crew during harvest season, with 2 combines running, and 80 hour work weeks were common. Not really big money as even today land value is around $1,500 an acre. Most farms have been owned for a loooong time by the same family, with many getting in on the land grab. They are given to the next generation, so again value is irrelevant other than inheritance taxes.

dayexco 11-24-2018 12:01 PM

Yeah, goes quick 42 foot headers, six miles an hour, gain carts, amazing how things have changed

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deckman22 11-24-2018 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dayexco (Post 7416471)
Yeah, goes quick 42 foot headers, six miles an hour, gain carts, amazing how things have changed

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Many of which are driven by GPS programs. SNL sells them to farmers in your area.

Seven-Delta-FortyOne 11-24-2018 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_C (Post 7416225)
5 acres :laughing: That isn't even worth planting. Leave it as a pasture. 20 acres is kinda a minimum or you can't run the combine in circles. We had a tract that was 2,000 acres. You wouldn't see the combine for an hour and it would come in over filled.

Now Paradise is faced with the extreme other side of nature. Rain! The damage continues.

Well, that's the kind of thinking that has created Agri-Business and Mega-Cities. :rolleyes:

We have at least 3 commercial grain farmers here. One of them has probably 50 acres in grains. Total. Wheat, Barley, Rye, Oats, etc.

The others are farming not more than 20 acres. They not only supply many individuals/ranches, bakeries, local food stores, etc., but at least one is selling to a craft distiller.

Homesteaders have always grown grain on a small scale. A couple thousand dollar tractor, and a simple harvester, can more than supply a community. :thumbsup:

Peter_C 11-24-2018 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Post 7416521)
Homesteaders have always grown grain on a small scale. A couple thousand dollar tractor, and a simple harvester, can more than supply a community. :thumbsup:

I think you mean a couple thousand dollar attachments? Tractors are expensive, even used ones of decent condition. Combines are REALLY expensive. My Grandmother founded a tractor selling company but sold it off eventually when she retired. Unfortunately it was before my time. I still collect memorabilia when it pops up on Ebay though.

To plant you need a genetically engineered seed spreader, with a smaller lighter less powerful tractor, a 500 gallon+ sprayer setup (Monsanto wants their cut :rolleyes:) with large tires for low compaction (Can be pulled), disking rig with a large powerful tractor usually has 4 tires and pivots in the middle, a beater for cutting the split pea soup crop down after harvest to enhance the soils nitrogen content, a combine to cut the grain/peas, and at least two large trucks to haul the crops, which of course is determined by turn time from field to elevator, oh some type of bucket loader. Gotta run #2 diesel for costs savings and the more bulk you buy the better the deal which means storage tank(s). A pickup or more to haul everything (Sounds like you got a nice one with a flat bed). Having a heated shop large enough to pull a combine or two into during winter for repairs is good as all tractors need service.

Maybe I am used to more commercial farming (Not Super Farms), but I just can't imagine making a profit on such a small scale, as the price of grain just isn't there to cover overhead. Although the work load sure would be minimal, as 20 acre fields would be done in less than an hour.

Grain never goes straight into the community as it must be processed at a mega mill first. Eventually it comes back as flour and bread, but probably from a different community. The local grain elevator will store grain for you at a cost until the market is up which is typically the following year. Then when you sell it gets loaded into a train car and headed off to said mega mill. Selling just before taxes are due is NOT a good time of the year.


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