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-   -   California burning again... (https://www.contractortalk.com/f22/california-burning-again-412997/)

hdavis 11-20-2018 10:11 AM

People saying it can't be done don't add anything.

30 million acres? All that could be burned.

Biomass generation has big trouble complying with EPA regulations, but brush, slash, and small trees are run through chippers all the time. That only works for areas yiu can get equipment in and out.

Different areas would work best with different approaches, but there are multiple approaches available. They all get argued against, so the problem doesn't get better.

Calidecks 11-20-2018 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rio (Post 7413621)
One part of solving this problem will be to bring back bio mass electrical generation stations, outfit them with the most modern scrubbers, and start from the edge of the urban interface and work into the hills getting this dead growth eliminated.



Like Cali Mike points out up the thread, it's worth billions to be active on this, like Griz points out we're well over 20,000 homes burned out.



As was pointed out on the radio by a fire expert by letting the brush undergrowth build up and the trees to get too dense when we do have fires we often get crown fires which are much more devastating and we lose heirloom trees (that happened with the Witch Creek fire down here not too long ago, trees that had survived fire after fire were burned up). Also the fires burn so hot they sterilize the ground, making it more barren and then there's the run off up north silting up the streams.



It's going to take a multi pronged approach and forest and shrub management has to be part of it in one way or another, by burning and generating electricity we'll be able to recoup some of our costs, be able to develop technology more to make those systems cleaner, and provide jobs to locals for the harvesting and tending the plant.



Put the money we're throwing away on giant wind turbines and put it into this instead along with deep sixing the bullet train to nowhere.



Environmentalists are partially to blame. These fires have done more to hurt the environment than probably 100 years of Cali cars. The same goes for the Freeways. The Environmentalists throw up court road blocks anytime they want to widen the freeways. So let's keep the cars in stop and go traffic so the smog gets worse. It's always about the unintended consequences.


Mike.
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Leo G 11-20-2018 10:23 AM

I'd say environmentalists are mostly to blame. They are the one's working feverishly to stop the logging industry from "raping" the forests of timber. They also make fire breaks, make roads for access into areas that aren't accessible and it wouldn't be to hard to make them clean up the underbrush in areas they are working. After all it's not CA govts money, so it should be easy to mandate it.

Peter_C 11-20-2018 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdavis (Post 7413643)
People saying it can't be done don't add anything.

The forest can't be raked :whistling

To compare Finland (My mother was born and lived in Finland until her early 20's. The wife and I were there two years ago.) to California is ridiculous. It is a colder and wetter climate that stays green in the summer and frozen solid in the winter. The evergreen trees grow well and are harvested at a rapid pace for paper, and wood products, BUT it is a mostly FLAT country where roads and machinery can access most of it. Fire has never been Finland's issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdavis (Post 7413643)
~ but brush, slash, and small trees are run through chippers all the time. That only works for areas you can get equipment in and out.

It just so happens where there are homes there are roads. So the best place to start chipping is around the homes creating a defensible space. I know in Sonoma, Marin, and Napa counties the fire department REQUIRES the home owners to cut their grass by mid to late June depending on the weather. And yes raking the grass is a good thing.

You don't need to log to clear land. A masticator on a powerful excavator can get the job done, which is what loggers use to clean up the forest. The government subsidizes thinning and cleaning the forest, when grants are available which is not every year. Oregon had to attach it to a Medicaid bill to get it through two years ago, or they would not have funded it. It is still expensive to the private land owners so typically it is done when logging to create an offset in costs. Thankfully being a Certified Tree Farm we get alerted first to funds available.

Infestations of bark beetles (And others), mistletoe, acid rain, and many other issues have been killing the forests across California, and the nation. Tall dead trees burn really well.

If you haven't traveled much in California you may not realize how steep some of the hillsides actually are. There are places you can barely walk up that no heavy equipment can access.

This video gives an idea what I am talking about, and shows the type of scrub brush that is burning fast and hot. You can not remove the scrub brush from the area as it is very bulky, and chipping is the only means of making it small enough to haul, at which point why haul it? Just spray it on the ground, which is what a masticator does.


griz 11-20-2018 01:42 PM

around a home and smaller areas a Fecon machine works great.

it usually mounts on a skid steer and although smaller than what Peter has shown they can clear & mulch a lot of ground.

Peter_C 11-20-2018 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by griz (Post 7413721)
around a home and smaller areas a Fecon machine works great.

it usually mounts on a skid steer and although smaller than what Peter has shown they can clear & mulch a lot of ground.

There are many different types of machines for sure. It is up to each home owner to create a space around their own home.

We did around our houses by hand. I kept asking my neighbor "Don't you own an attachment for you Bobcat?" He replied "No, but I really should buy one". At least he owns a serious chipper that eats 14" trees. I ran the chipper for over 20 hours in the last couple of years just on our property in Sonoma County.

After the Tubb's fire I learned a lot, and that I hadn't done enough, even though our house was spared. Thinking back to the homes that burned you could point at every single one of them and point to the cause of them burning. Often just a burning bush next to the house. My neighbors house was a perfect example. I had many discussions with them about their juniper bushes and that they were a major fire hazard, and strongly recommend they remove them. Sure enough the junipers caught their house on fire. Now the bushes are gone.

Here is an overview video of a few types of land clearing machines.

hdavis 11-20-2018 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_C (Post 7413717)
The forest can't be raked :whistling

Of ,course it can be, I spent a summer working for an Engkish woman who wanted her new to her 3 acre lot looking just like the forests back home. Trees trimmed, brush cut out, old dead trees rotting on the ground, leaves, etc raked out, and the whole thing mown. No power equipment to be used except a chainsaw and a lawn mower.

It's very expensive due to the labor involved. It isn't how I'd manage a forest, but it can be done if you're willing. I don't think you'd find 10M people willing to do that kind of work, it's terrible.

Leo G 11-20-2018 03:59 PM

We have a whole caravan of them at the border looking for work.

SmallTownGuy 11-21-2018 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Californiadecks (Post 7413497)
There's no place that doesn't have something going on that could be dangerous. Been here 51 years never been burned nor had an earthquake do any harm to me. What's also an issue is the BS third world policies that's turning our cities into ****holes, literally. Full of human feces and dirty used needles. It's a ****ing shame actually.


Mike.
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Find somebody that knows what a history book is. A teacher maybe.

Then have them read it to you.

You will learn (and likely not believe) that the cities of today bear no resemblance to the poverty and pallor of years past.

Rio 11-21-2018 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmallTownGuy (Post 7414195)
Find somebody that knows what a history book is. A teacher maybe.

Then have them read it to you.

You will learn (and likely not believe) that the cities of today bear no resemblance to the poverty and pallor of years past.

San Francisco bears no resemblance to the city it was a short 30 years ago. There was a women doctor on the radio yesterday explaining that the 'pooper scooper' crews efforts to pick up the tons of human feces every month there are not effective in eliminating the threat of feces borne diseases. She was explaining, 'you can still get sick without stepping in human poop, it's on a micro scale so the sidewalk might look clean but it isn't'.

What a thing to have to be dealing with, not to mention junkies shooting up in the subway stations, passed out in their own vomit, needles strewn everywhere, etc..

KAP 11-21-2018 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmallTownGuy (Post 7414195)
Find somebody that knows what a history book is. A teacher maybe.

Then have them read it to you.

You will learn (and likely not believe) that the cities of today bear no resemblance to the poverty and pallor of years past.

You're right... poverty and pallor of years past were bad... but the difference between the past and today is with the amount of services available through the private and public sector to people in poverty and pallor juxtaposed against the conditions that exist makes very little sense...

Robie 11-21-2018 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmallTownGuy (Post 7414195)
Find somebody that knows what a history book is. A teacher maybe.

Then have them read it to you.

You will learn (and likely not believe) that the cities of today bear no resemblance to the poverty and pallor of years past.

Quote:

San Francisco's 'Dirty Streets' Scare Off Long-time Convention with 15,000 attendees
A major medical association has decided to plan its convention elsewhere, leaving San Francisco with a $40 million loss and the fear other groups could do the same
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...487266591.html

Seven-Delta-FortyOne 11-21-2018 09:46 AM

Well, it's pouring rain here at the ranch. :thumbsup:

Supposed to get 2" or more between today and tomorrow. Don't know who else is getting some. Rain, that is. :blink:

Glad to have some nice indoor work going on now. :thumbsup:

Seven-Delta-FortyOne 11-21-2018 09:50 AM

Interesting article in the local news blog about a guy who went to help out with the Camp Fire.

They started back-fires on Sierra Pacific land, which saved a small town.

He said the back-fires never would have worked on USFS land, because there is too much fuel. SP land is really well managed.

Heres a link:

http://kymkemp.com/2018/11/20/i-give...y-firefighter/

Kind of a difficult article to read, you'll see why, but some interesting info nonetheless.

Calidecks 11-21-2018 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmallTownGuy (Post 7414195)
Find somebody that knows what a history book is. A teacher maybe.



Then have them read it to you.



You will learn (and likely not believe) that the cities of today bear no resemblance to the poverty and pallor of years past.



I don't need a history book. I've lived here for 51 years. The cities were much much cleaner. You know before the left allowed them to live and **** on the sidewalks. Which was attractive to homeless everywhere. I've worked with the homeless and the homeless nonprofits for 20 years. I'm an expert in that field. The difference between you and I, I've taken action to help the situation and dumped personal money into it as well for real solutions that work. You get to be an arm chair quarterback on the internet.


Mike.
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Calidecks 11-21-2018 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Post 7414329)
Interesting article in the local news blog about a guy who went to help out with the Camp Fire.



They started back-fires on Sierra Pacific land, which saved a small town.



He said the back-fires never would have worked on USFS land, because there is too much fuel. SP land is really well managed.



Heres a link:



http://kymkemp.com/2018/11/20/i-give...y-firefighter/



Kind of a difficult article to read, you'll see why, but some interesting info nonetheless.


There's 130 million dead trees in this state. From the bark Beatles and the drought. They needed to have started cutting those many years ago. The less fuel the better.




Mike.
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Calidecks 11-21-2018 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KAP (Post 7414309)
You're right... poverty and pallor of years past were bad... but the difference between the past and today is with the amount of services available through the private and public sector to people in poverty and pallor juxtaposed against the conditions that exist makes very little sense...



The key is We pulled out of the way things were 150 years ago. Now we are heading back. Now why is that, one might ask.

San Francisco was one voted the cleanest city in the world in their size category.


Mike.
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tgeb 11-21-2018 12:05 PM

Your smoke has made it to the East coast.

https://c-6rtwjumjzx7877x24x78x2emis.../$/$/$/$/$/$/$

hdavis 11-21-2018 12:22 PM

Turn the clock back 40 yrs, and SFO was great. Sure, they had the tenderloin, and haight ashbury was a drug infested dump, but the rest of the city was mostly pretty pristine. Sad to think the the sidewalks that glittered silver at night now have an odd hue. The Moscone convention center always had some convention going on in the 80s.

Leo G 11-21-2018 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgeb (Post 7414377)
Your smoke has made it to the East coast.

https://c-6rtwjumjzx7877x24x78x2emis.../$/$/$/$/$/$/$

Lets use the laws they agree with and probably helped enact to sue the pants off of them for polluting the entire country because of their mismanagement and neglect of the forests.


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