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Old 12-18-2012, 06:13 PM   #21
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Re: American Guns


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Originally Posted by carpenter uk View Post
the statistics say it all with the amount of shootings you have. they put you in more danger than protect you.
Incidence of violent crime is a reflection of how violent a society is. The US isn't generally violent, but some portions of it are. I'm not sure what statistics you're looking at, but your conclusion is far from certain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kleck

In the circles I move, I don't know anyone who was murdered, so I consider it a non-issue for me. Having to leave a gun in a car due to carry restrictions could result in having it stolen. On the other hand, in some areas of the country, especially in gang territory, I would still be armed specifically for self defense.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:23 PM   #22
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Re: American Guns


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Originally Posted by dayexco View Post
i'm not going to look it up, take your word for it...but Illinois isn't on that list? they've had, what? 465 murders so far this year?

i.c....per capita...
Yes, it's gun rate, not total gun deaths. I should have made that more clear.

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Originally Posted by aptpupil View Post
Where do you get this info?
CSM has the following states as have the most strict gun laws in the U.S.:
PA
IL
HI
RI
NY
MD
CT
MA
NJ
CA

Other than MD, every one of those 10 is on the lower half of the gun death rate ranking in the US:
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri...te-per-100-000
To add to this post, some more literature on the issue:
"Where there are more guns there is more homicide"
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research...ath/index.html



http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...-deaths/69354/




Regarding the notion that America is more violent than other industrialized nations:


http://www.kieranhealy.org/blog/arch...olent-country/
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:23 PM   #23
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Re: American Guns


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Originally Posted by jackrafter

Good luck to all that think they could defeat our goverment with their little weapons caches.

Last I checked our goverment has jets,tanks,missiles etc.....Any of you antigoverment guys have that kind of fire power?
This question was asked about a bunch of farmers, sometime around 1776 when a country called England was the most powerful military on earth. I don't see a problem doing that again
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:26 PM   #24
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Re: American Guns


@jackrafter. Do you thunk mabey some of thoes tank and guns might be on our side not the govmnt.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:28 PM   #25
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Re: American Guns


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Originally Posted by blast4cash
@jackrafter. Do you thunk mabey some of thoes tank and guns might be on our side not the govmnt.
That's a great point those soldiers are our brothers, uncles, nephews, fathers. Sisters etc. ill bet I know who they will side with, and it's not the communistic left
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:31 PM   #26
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Re: American Guns


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Originally Posted by carpenter uk View Post

Theory's of having them are all well and good but the statistics speak for themselves More guns in circulation = more gun crime
Statistics never speak for themselves. In a statistical analysis, all that can be objectively said is I took this data and did this stuff to it and came up with this number. Someone still has to interpret what it means.

Even under well controlled experiments like are conducted in the medical field, a researcher may perform the experiment, run the statistics, and conclude a treatment is wonderful, then 10 years later do the same exact thing and conclude it isn't so great.

Thinking statistics can somehow make up for not fully understanding something is a mistake with growing consequences in every day life. If you don't understand the entire causal structure, the statistics don't help and are most likely to mislead.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:39 PM   #27
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Re: American Guns


Case in point in interpreting. Strictest laws vs least (chart above). So the question is whether changing the law from strict to lax or lax to strict would decrease, increase, or have no measurable effect. In the current context, the question would be banning "military style assault rifles".

Neither question can be answered based on the charts shown, but they do manage to mislead people into thinking they answer some significant question.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:40 PM   #28
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Re: American Guns


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Originally Posted by carpenter uk View Post
Your probably in a position where there is too many guns in the country now to change the law as its only the honest people that would hand them in and it would take generations to clear the bulk of the rest meaning only the criminals would have them.

Theory's of having them are all well and good but the statistics speak for themselves More guns in circulation = more gun crime

Dont get me wrong we have shootings in the uk and some areas a rife with guns but i feel safe without one where as if i knew most others had them i would not and probably get one myself to go with my paslodes
The US is such a terrible dangerous place to live yet the illegals keep flooding in.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:47 PM   #29
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Re: American Guns


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Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
Case in point in interpreting. Strictest laws vs least (chart above). So the question is whether changing the law from strict to lax or lax to strict would decrease, increase, or have no measurable effect. In the current context, the question would be banning "military style assault rifles".

Neither question can be answered based on the charts shown, but they do manage to mislead people into thinking they answer some significant question.
Nope. The charts and data disprove a myth put out by people who tend to like guns and oppose gun restrictions.

I'll quote again below for those who missed it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by deckman22 View Post
I don't where you are getting your misleading info (no doubt msm), but more guns does not mean more gun crime, it's actually just the opposite. Look at our states that have the strictest gun control laws, they also have the most gun crime.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:48 PM   #30
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Re: American Guns


Quote:
Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
Statistics never speak for themselves. In a statistical analysis, all that can be objectively said is I took this data and did this stuff to it and came up with this number. Someone still has to interpret what it means.

Even under well controlled experiments like are conducted in the medical field, a researcher may perform the experiment, run the statistics, and conclude a treatment is wonderful, then 10 years later do the same exact thing and conclude it isn't so great.

Thinking statistics can somehow make up for not fully understanding something is a mistake with growing consequences in every day life. If you don't understand the entire causal structure, the statistics don't help and are most likely to mislead.
I could give a rats ass about statistics I will make me and my family safe how I see fit .
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:50 PM   #31
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Re: American Guns


everyone has valid points, but what about owning guns just for hunting?! half this country is supported by hunters. The government even had to take money from "Fish and Game" to fund this war.

And someone said "buy a gun buy a safe". totally agree on this one.
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:03 PM   #32
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Re: American Guns


As most know I'm from England. London to be exact so I have some experience both sides of the world. I prefer the having guns and here my reasoning. I know people and have been my self. a victim of numerous break ins and some of these people got broken into and assaulted. Every time someone in the UK takes action on their own property to protect their self they normally end up getting sued or worse locked up and the criminal gets away with a slap on the wrist. Where as here I'm more than allowed to protect my self in my own home if need be. You have almost zero rights to protect your self in England. I have 3 friends who are in prison for 2-6 years because they fight back. It's a messed up system in the UK for sure.

I know of only one person who has been stabbed in 5 years of living here and he died and not one person who has been shot and killed. I can't say the same about England I knew about 10+ people who have been stabbed and a few of them died. The most recent ones were a friend from colchester and a friend from London and its getting out of control. When you live out in the sticks knife crime ain't a big deal but you live in any city you can put money on it that's it's only a matter of time before someone pulls a shank on you. It's happend to be on busses, trains, parks etc etc and I lost my Raines a few times.
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:28 PM   #33
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Re: American Guns


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Originally Posted by BCConstruction View Post
As most know I'm from England. London to be exact so I have some experience both sides of the world. I prefer the having guns and here my reasoning. I know people and have been my self. a victim of numerous break ins and some of these people got broken into and assaulted. Every time someone in the UK takes action on their own property to protect their self they normally end up getting sued or worse locked up and the criminal gets away with a slap on the wrist. Where as here I'm more than allowed to protect my self in my own home if need be. You have almost zero rights to protect your self in England. I have 3 friends who are in prison for 2-6 years because they fight back. It's a messed up system in the UK for sure.

I know of only one person who has been stabbed in 5 years of living here and he died and not one person who has been shot and killed. I can't say the same about England I knew about 10+ people who have been stabbed and a few of them died. The most recent ones were a friend from colchester and a friend from London and its getting out of control. When you live out in the sticks knife crime ain't a big deal but you live in any city you can put money on it that's it's only a matter of time before someone pulls a shank on you. It's happend to be on busses, trains, parks etc etc and I lost my Raines a few times.
A gun would sure be handy in a knife fight.
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:41 PM   #34
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Re: American Guns


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Originally Posted by Californiadecks View Post
This question was asked about a bunch of farmers, sometime around 1776 when a country called England was the most powerful military on earth. I don't see a problem doing that again
I would think things are so different now , that argument has very little merit.

For one thing, I would think the gap in technology and weapons is such as to make that argument invalid.

England was a huge power yes, but it was on the other side of an ocean. The logistics would be much different now in terms of supplies and troop movements.
I would hope enough of the tanks and other weaponry would be on the side of the citizenry to make a difference.
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:43 PM   #35
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Re: American Guns


California has the highest murder rate by firearms in the US. While the rate is on the decline California still is roughly 1/3 of all deaths by firearms. California also has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation.

The fact of the matter is in the US there is more murder caused by knifes, hands, feet, and sticks.

That nice color map is plan wrong when compared to the FBI's annual crime statistics.
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:55 PM   #36
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Re: American Guns


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A gun would sure be handy in a knife fight.
A gun would be handy in a gun fight too
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:58 PM   #37
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Re: American Guns


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I would think things are so different now , that argument has very little merit.

For one thing, I would think the gap in technology and weapons is such as to make that argument invalid.

England was a huge power yes, but it was on the other side of an ocean. The logistics would be much different now in terms of supplies and troop movements.
I would hope enough of the tanks and other weaponry would be on the side of the citizenry to make a difference.
But those soldiers are our brothers, fathers, sisters, uncles, nephews, whose side do you think they will take when there superiors ask them to bomb there mothers house?

My argument is better today then it was in 1776
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:06 PM   #38
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Re: American Guns


What gets me with all this gun ban stuff is that its ok for us the criminal victims to be unarmed yet the police will still be armed even if theres a gun ban Why do they need guns if theres gonna be no guns on the street after a gun ban They can all have tasers cant they
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:13 PM   #39
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Re: American Guns


This should end it. Ted says it best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUIXH9DeCRU
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:13 PM   #40
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Re: American Guns


The gun control debate is too frequently defined as a choice between anyone owning any gun with no restrictions or nobody owning guns at all. It's a little ridiculous.

I don't feel strongly one way or the other except that I disagree with the extreme view on either side. I think having a gun in the house can be dangerous if proper safety isn't observed and it's not much help in a self-defense situation if it's properly secured. I also don't hunt so there's not much point in me owning one. I also don't really care if other people own them as long as they don't present an obvious danger to others. I think this is a pretty common stance. It's the middle.

I think that most people can agree on a number of issues. There are so many guns in the US that we won't eliminate them for generations. There are MANY people who use them responsibly and safely store them when not in use. Not just any person should be allowed to carry a loaded weapon wherever they want. Abolishing something isn't the only way to control its use.

If we could drop the rhetoric and hyperbole then maybe we could have a better conversation about this as a society.

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