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737 Crash

 
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:59 AM   #21
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Re: 737 Crash


It turns out, the plane has an unusual flight characteristic. The nose can pitch up suddenly when in a steep turn, or when climbing relatively close to stall speed, like take offs. The MCAS system was added to prevent disastrous stalls in those situations. It's active even during manual flight.

I could see how experience and specific training would be needed to take the correct actions when the plane is reacting violently and there is little time.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:10 AM   #22
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Re: 737 Crash


Couple things about the video... Looks like the pilot is filming in the first shot. If he was having trouble handling the plane, he might not be able to film. CUT to a passenger filming, seated in front of the right wing. remains calm and steady to the end. The person filming never says a word, or screams. Seems odd! When I drop my phone from my waist, it's broke...Remains have been minimal... Here is a look at my nephews that died on this flight. https://krcrtv.com/news/shasta-count...s1UADupn-c09XA

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Old 03-15-2019, 10:15 AM   #23
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Re: 737 Crash


https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https...px09C_A8yKy9Uo For Mels wife and unborn baby.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:38 AM   #24
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Re: 737 Crash


Tang, I only briefly expressed my condolences in the other thread, but I'd like to say a little more.

It's unimaginable to me what having this happen to a family nember, relative, or friend would be like. I can't say I know what it's like, because I don't. I truly am sorry for your loss. It doesn't really cover it, since this is such a tragedy,

I can only pray the families, relatives, and friends can find some peace in their lives.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:02 AM   #25
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Re: 737 Crash


Thanks for the kind words. Two great kid. Gone to soon.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:41 PM   #26
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Re: 737 Crash


Quote:
Originally Posted by builditguy View Post
A long time ago, there were some military crashes. They determined the pilot caused the crash, by not turning off the auto-pilot.

Something happened, the pilot freaked out, and pulled back on the yolk. By doing that, with the autopilot on, the plane automatically tried to correct the problem by going into a dive. Then the pilot pulled back harder to try and correct it. So, the plan corrected even further. The end result was the plane diving to the ground and crashing, with the pilot pulling back on the yolk, as hard as possible.

I've only had a couple incidents when it really shook me. Instrument training and your bearing really get off. A small drop feels like a huge drop, when you can't see. Having said that, I can see how this happens.
I started taking flying lessons in 1976, and a few years before that, there was a 727 that went down in the Everglades....it was on autopilot, and one of the pilots inadvertently "bumped" the control wheel and the AP disconnected. The plane began a slow glide, all the way to the swamp, while the pilots and flight engineer were all trying to figure out if the gear was down and locked, or they had a light bulb out.

I remember many flight instructors saying "fly the plane first", then anything and everything else after. Not just aviate and then communicate.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:43 PM   #27
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Re: 737 Crash


Quote:
Originally Posted by tang View Post
Couple things about the video... Looks like the pilot is filming in the first shot. If he was having trouble handling the plane, he might not be able to film. CUT to a passenger filming, seated in front of the right wing. remains calm and steady to the end. The person filming never says a word, or screams. Seems odd! When I drop my phone from my waist, it's broke...Remains have been minimal... Here is a look at my nephews that died on this flight. https://krcrtv.com/news/shasta-count...s1UADupn-c09XA
My wife thinks it is simulated. So I don't know. I can't imagine the view from the back being so steady when panic is going on, and I would discount it based on that. I know Lufthansa has cameras in the cockpit looking forward that you can view from the passenger seats, and mounted under the plane so passengers can see the landing....but the view from the cockpit is probably not accurate.

And I am very sorry for your family's loss.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:30 PM   #28
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Re: 737 Crash


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Originally Posted by Joasis View Post
My wife thinks it is simulated. So I don't know. I can't imagine the view from the back being so steady when panic is going on, and I would discount it based on that.
TOTAL Simulation. Likely out of flight training simulator. Maybe even based on black box info from the last crash. Or simulating what happens when this condition arises.

Colors are too bright, the dynamic range (brights to darks) is too uniform for being in a plane on a bright sunny day. Interior would be black to record outside or exterior would be pure white to have realistic looking interior. Especially video or photographic equipment that a Pilot or Passenger would have on hand.
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:16 PM   #29
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Re: 737 Crash


Jo, you might appreciate this.

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Old 03-15-2019, 06:54 PM   #30
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Re: 737 Crash


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Old 03-15-2019, 09:01 PM   #31
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Re: 737 Crash


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joasis View Post
I started taking flying lessons in 1976, and a few years before that, there was a 727 that went down in the Everglades....it was on autopilot, and one of the pilots inadvertently "bumped" the control wheel and the AP disconnected. The plane began a slow glide, all the way to the swamp, while the pilots and flight engineer were all trying to figure out if the gear was down and locked, or they had a light bulb out.



I remember many flight instructors saying "fly the plane first", then anything and everything else after. Not just aviate and then communicate.


I was a while after that. My instructor, said the same thing.


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Old 03-16-2019, 07:59 AM   #32
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Re: 737 Crash


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Jo, you might appreciate this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlinocVHpzk

I didn't watch it, I have been watching the technical videos on the subject, and I have a pretty good understanding of why the Max Jets are having issues.

For non-pilots, every heavy aircraft, above 12,000# take off weight, requires an individual type rating. Meaning, you are checked out and rated to fly that aircraft. If you fly the 737-200, for instance, you are not qualified or rated to fly the 777 or 787....different airplanes, different characteristics. All planes have their own quirks if you prefer, and the techniques to fly them are different.

Where Boeing is taking a lot of heat on this is the way the plane was marketed. It is sold as a plane that already qualified crew on any 737 can fly, because it is nothing more then an upgraded 737....and it is proving that this plane is not the everyday 737, but an animal all it's own.

They will get a software patch, and then I would guess the plane will have it's own type rating.

It isn't just about the stall, it is about the training. There hasn't been an accident in the US, and you have to wonder why? There is no doubt that the system has had errors here, so why no crashes? Training. We don't allow 200 hour pilots to fly heavy jets.

I bet that Southwest has indeed reported problems to Boeing, and they have their own method of handling the issue. Could be as simple as not handing the plane over to MCAS until altitude is reached.
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Old 03-16-2019, 08:23 AM   #33
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Re: 737 Crash


If you think about it, the angle of attack sensor system has had 2 catastrophic fails in a few months. That is terrible reliability for aerospace requirements.

There may be a software patch, but IMO the sensor subsystem needs a redesign as well, or perhaps it's getting compromised during ground activities.

Boeing says the MCAS system can be overridden by using the electric or manual stabilizer trim, so maybe that has been done by others experiencing a problem.
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Old 03-16-2019, 08:37 AM   #34
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Re: 737 Crash


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If you think about it, the angle of attack sensor system has had 2 catastrophic fails in a few months. That is terrible reliability for aerospace requirements.

There may be a software patch, but IMO the sensor subsystem needs a redesign as well, or perhaps it's getting compromised during ground activities.

Boeing says the MCAS system can be overridden by using the electric or manual stabilizer trim, so maybe that has been done by others experiencing a problem.
My take on this is exactly that. You know if they think the sensors are not accurate, then the answer is to not use the system until you are climbing at a low angle of attack, above 10,000 feet or higher.

It also seems that the problems are also with the crews not being able to disengage the system, but Boeing says it is a simple switch. In an emergency, I would guess they can't find the switch? When you are at low altitude, things get exciting in a hurry. And there is no time to think about it.

BTW, I read that Boeing test pilots were able to make the Max Jet climb nearly vertically....amazing performance for a plane of that size.
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Old 03-16-2019, 08:45 AM   #35
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Re: 737 Crash


The point of the vid was to discuss the procedures to address a stall. Gotta maneuver and regain air speed before you throttle up, or the nose won't go down. I wonder if someone panicked and thrusted prematurely.
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Old 03-16-2019, 09:22 AM   #36
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Re: 737 Crash


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The point of the vid was to discuss the procedures to address a stall. Gotta maneuver and regain air speed before you throttle up, or the nose won't go down. I wonder if someone panicked and thrusted prematurely.

These accidents are occurring during take-off and initial climb out. There is no maneuvering. There is no altitude to trade for normal stall and stall recovery.

I used to fly an Aztec, an older Piper twin engine, 6 place plane with great speed and ride...and it had a single axis autopilot that had a large placard on the panel: Do not engage in turbulence. Do not attempt to use during climb out, and so on. Meaning use only in level flight.
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Old 03-16-2019, 01:50 PM   #37
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Re: 737 Crash


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These accidents are occurring during take-off and initial climb out. There is no maneuvering. There is no altitude to trade for normal stall and stall recovery.

I used to fly an Aztec, an older Piper twin engine, 6 place plane with great speed and ride...and it had a single axis autopilot that had a large placard on the panel: Do not engage in turbulence. Do not attempt to use during climb out, and so on. Meaning use only in level flight.

Yes, I know they are occuring during climb out.

The pilot in the video explains how the new MCAS system works. 737-8's and 737-9's needed it to be certified, but not the earlier 737-NG's, because of the challenges of the new, powerful, and repositioned engines. And he discusses how a stall warning would be addressed, etc....which means trying to get the nose down somehow, even during the climb out. Sounds like a heck of problem to remedy.

You even get to see MCAS in action, so I would suggest watching the vid, notwithstanding your experience.
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Old 03-16-2019, 02:32 PM   #38
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Re: 737 Crash


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there was a 727 that went down in the Everglades....it was on autopilot, and one of the pilots inadvertently "bumped" the control wheel and the AP disconnected..

L-1011


Unfortunately the warning altitude chime was at the flight engineers table who was not there because he was in the lower fuselage in the avionics compartment verifying that the landing gear was down and locked





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Old 03-16-2019, 02:36 PM   #39
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Re: 737 Crash


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Originally Posted by tang View Post
Couple things about the video... Looks like the pilot is filming in the first shot. If he was having trouble handling the plane, he might not be able to film. CUT to a passenger filming, seated in front of the right wing. remains calm and steady to the end. The person filming never says a word, or screams. Seems odd! When I drop my phone from my waist, it's broke...Remains have been minimal... Here is a look at my nephews that died on this flight. https://krcrtv.com/news/shasta-count...s1UADupn-c09XA


Tang im sorry to hear about your family members that were lost

I can only imagine what your family is going through, back in the mid 90s my cousin lost her husband in one of the American Eagle crashes


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Old 03-16-2019, 04:14 PM   #40
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Re: 737 Crash


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L-1011


Unfortunately the warning altitude chime was at the flight engineers table who was not there because he was in the lower fuselage in the avionics compartment verifying that the landing gear was down and locked





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You are correct, I had to go and look. I actually started to type 707, as they were still in service then.

Also, FWIW, the captain was found to have had a brain tumor that would have been fatal...discovered during autopsy. I don't know if that mattered, but the captain also had like 30,000 pilot in command hours. Lots of time in the air.

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