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hdavis 03-14-2019 10:17 AM

737 Crash
 
Satellite data showed a series of food followed by a dive shortly after take off. It's triggered by a sensor malfunction and can occur when the autopilot is engaged. Pilots are trained to turn off the autopilot if there is a sensor failure.

'
The Lion Air plane experienced more than two dozen sharp dips shortly after takeoff. Indonesian investigators said in a preliminary report that the plane was automatically commanded to dive because software known as Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS, thought the plane was in danger of losing lift on the wings.
'

Joasis 03-14-2019 12:12 PM

I posted on this in the P^R, but in short, training, training, training.

The first officer ( co-pilot) on the Ethiopian flight had 200 total hours of flight time....let me say this again...200 hours total. 5 weeks of 40 hour weeks. 5 weeks.

Think about that. the captain had 8,000 hours....respectable, but Sully had nearly 20,000 hours and Skiles, his co-pilot had 16,000 or so hours.

hdavis 03-14-2019 12:28 PM

It just seems to be common sense to me that if you want to fly the plane yourself, you take it off autopilot.

I'm probably missing something there, but that really seems to be the issue.

On the technology side, I would think that there could be a redesigned module that has a self test and takes its self out of the control loop if it failed, or a redundant sensor module.

Obviously, without knowing the hardware / software design, it's all speculation on my part.

SmallTownGuy 03-14-2019 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joasis (Post 7498937)
I posted on this in the P^R, but in short, training, training, training.

The first officer ( co-pilot) on the Ethiopian flight had 200 total hours of flight time....let me say this again...200 hours total. 5 weeks of 40 hour weeks. 5 weeks.

Think about that. the captain had 8,000 hours....respectable, but Sully had nearly 20,000 hours and Skiles, his co-pilot had 16,000 or so hours.

200 hours in that type aircraft? or total right seat time?

hdavis 03-14-2019 12:45 PM

Total time..You have to start somewhere.

Joasis 03-14-2019 12:46 PM

Total time. About 3 times more then the minimum to get a private pilot's license in the US.

You don't fly right seat in a commercial airliner without 1250 hours minimum and an Airline Transport License. Most first officers have 4,000 or more hours, and captains have 10,000.

Joasis 03-14-2019 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdavis (Post 7498969)
It just seems to be common sense to me that if you want to fly the plane yourself, you take it off autopilot.

I'm probably missing something there, but that really seems to be the issue.

On the technology side, I would think that there could be a redesigned module that has a self test and takes its self out of the control loop if it failed, or a redundant sensor module.

Obviously, without knowing the hardware / software design, it's all speculation on my part.


There is a video you can watch showing the final moments
and it is scary.

I only have a cursory understanding of the flight director system they use, but apparently, the error is that when a hand is on the control stick, or wheel, whatever, only 10 or 15 pounds of pressure cause the computer to disconnect.....the software glitch apparently was overriding the disconnect signal, and the correct action, which American pilots have trained in, is to literally turn the switch off....like shutting off your cruise control if tapping the brake pedal doesn't do it.

It is a software issue.....not the plane.

SmallTownGuy 03-14-2019 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joasis (Post 7499005)
Total time. About 3 times more then the minimum to get a private pilot's license in the US.

You don't fly right seat in a commercial airliner without 1250 hours minimum and an Airline Transport License. Most first officers have 4,000 or more hours, and captains have 10,000.

yup.

Joasis 03-14-2019 01:07 PM

Notice in the video that when the view is from the seats in the back looking back over the wing, the flexing going on? Violent up and down pitch changes. And the passengers screams. Enough to make anyone not want to fly ever again.

All of that could have been avoided with training and a first officer who would have been pulling the breaker or shutting off the system....the pilot obviously had his hands on the controls and could not let go, for all the good it did him. Plus, at low altitude, there wasn't a lot of time.....

heavy_d 03-14-2019 01:41 PM

Is it just me or does that video look like an animation?

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

Rio 03-14-2019 02:39 PM

Animation, little gallows humor going on. There's 5,000 of those jets on order right now, China is praying that Boeing drops the ball on solving the problem.

MarkJames 03-14-2019 02:50 PM

They're going to find the issue and solve it. Time to buy BA if you have spare $$.

hdavis 03-14-2019 05:04 PM

Without understanding the hardware and software systems involved, I would think there could be an easy software patch.

Big Johnson 03-14-2019 07:20 PM

I wonder if this unit is the culprit or something in the cockpit controls.


https://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?Idc...ame=PCT_201019

rescraft 03-14-2019 07:23 PM

Heard a software patch is in the works and will be done by the end of the month. Until then, take a cruise....

hdavis 03-14-2019 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Johnson (Post 7499315)
I wonder if this unit is the culprit or something in the cockpit controls.


https://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?Idc...ame=PCT_201019

Not likely. At worst, that could set a fault. Mechanical fail outside of a maintenance issue would be unlikely.

Big Johnson 03-14-2019 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdavis (Post 7499429)
Not likely. At worst, that could set a fault. Mechanical fail outside of a maintenance issue would be unlikely.

That unit is mostly circuit boards and interfaces with the autopilot.

Big Johnson 03-14-2019 09:40 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Pretty sure this is the cockpit control for the actuator assembly in the link.


https://aviation.stackexchange.com/q...e-boeing-737-m

builditguy 03-15-2019 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdavis (Post 7498969)
It just seems to be common sense to me that if you want to fly the plane yourself, you take it off autopilot.

I'm probably missing something there, but that really seems to be the issue.

On the technology side, I would think that there could be a redesigned module that has a self test and takes its self out of the control loop if it failed, or a redundant sensor module.

Obviously, without knowing the hardware / software design, it's all speculation on my part.

A long time ago, there were some military crashes. They determined the pilot caused the crash, by not turning off the auto-pilot.

Something happened, the pilot freaked out, and pulled back on the yolk. By doing that, with the autopilot on, the plane automatically tried to correct the problem by going into a dive. Then the pilot pulled back harder to try and correct it. So, the plan corrected even further. The end result was the plane diving to the ground and crashing, with the pilot pulling back on the yolk, as hard as possible.

I've only had a couple incidents when it really shook me. Instrument training and your bearing really get off. A small drop feels like a huge drop, when you can't see. Having said that, I can see how this happens.

hdavis 03-15-2019 09:44 AM

'
A preliminary report on the Lion Air Flight 610 accident blamed it in part on a faulty angle of attack sensor that triggered the MCAS system and automatically forced the plane's nose down.

Pilots flying the same Lion Air plane the previous day had managed to override the automated flight control system.
'

On the previous crash, one crew handled it, and one crew didn't. Sensor fails 2 days in a row is pretty concerning.


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