Ice Dam HELP - Roofing - Contractor Talk

Ice Dam HELP

 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-24-2008, 09:55 AM   #1
Pro
 
Patrick's Avatar
 
Trade: Siding, Windows, Seamless Gutters, Metal Roofing
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,196
Rewards Points: 2,364

Ice Dam HELP


HELP, I am getting call after call after call from customers whos houses we have sided, that are getting water inside their walls this week. We have gone out to all of them to inspect them all have HUGE ice damns and inches of standing water on the roof.

We even go so far as to unzip a few siding panels to see that it is bone dry under the siding. I try to explain the ices dams to people and they honestly look at me like im lying.

Anyone have experience handling these situations? They are all good customers but understandably agitated currently.

As a side note, we have received ZERO calls from any roofs that WE installed.

We got a ton of freezing rain, then over a foot of snow, and now we are getting freezing rain, its like the perfect recipe for disaster.
__________________
Originally Posted by Celtic
Like I said...I'm sure you are very good at what you do ~ whatever that is and where ever it happens.
Patrick is offline  

Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ContractorTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

   

Advertisement

 

Old 12-24-2008, 10:17 AM   #2
 
Burby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 359
Rewards Points: 250

Re: Ice Dam HELP


Explain to them on the phone to go in their attic with a flashlight and shine towards the the soffit areas and see if they have water dripping inisde from the roof onto the ceiling or top of the wall plates.

On the interior the leaks, if from the roof would show on the ceiling, running down the interior walls.

If you have to go to the homes
Draw them a typicall wall/roof construction picture. With double plates on top of the walls water don't get in the walls unless it runs down between the plates & drywall or plates & the sheathing, then into the wall cavity.

Vinyl siding does not claim to be a water proofing system, the moisture barrier does this..

Don't forget to mention to them on the phone there will be a service call charge if they insist it was caused by you and turns out it was not.

Advertisement

Burby is offline  
Old 12-24-2008, 11:11 AM   #3
Member
 
Travis's Avatar
 
Trade: roofing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 78
Rewards Points: 75

Re: Ice Dam HELP


That happened to us last Feb. Alot of pissed of homeowners I had to deal with during a Ice Storm. I was giving them copies of literature on ice damming. Similar to these 2 http://www.extension.umn.edu/distrib...ng/DK1068.html

http://www.statefarm.com/learning/lo...on_icedams.asp

We went to about 20-30 customers roof's we did from during the ice storm. You should always go to everyone to clear yourself and give literature to. Tell them to google ice dammining. Everyone generally assumes it is the roofers fault. It is generally poor insulation. Interior damage is claimable by the insurance companies.

Last edited by Travis; 12-24-2008 at 11:22 AM.
Travis is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-24-2008, 11:15 AM   #4
 
Burby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 359
Rewards Points: 250

Re: Ice Dam HELP


Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
That happened to us last Feb. Alot of pissed of homeowners I had to deal with during a Ice Storm. I was giving them copies of literature on ice damming. Similar to these 2 http://www.extension.umn.edu/distrib...ng/DK1068.html

http://www.statefarm.com/learning/lo...on_icedams.asp

Everyone generally assumes it is the roofers fault. It is claimable by the insurance companies.
See even the weather is trying to help with this economy mess we are
in.
Burby is offline  
Old 12-24-2008, 11:22 AM   #5
Pro
 
Aframe's Avatar
 
Trade: Carpenter/GC
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston, Mass
Posts: 546
Rewards Points: 550

Re: Ice Dam HELP


Google "ice dam" images and bring a couple of pics to show them what is going on up there. Or have them do it when you first get the call.

Tell them they need to have at least the bottom edge of the roof cleared (3-4' maybe if not all snow) Tell them you offer this service for $, if you want, or pass them off to your roofer.
Aframe is offline  
Old 12-24-2008, 12:40 PM   #6
Pro
 
Tom M's Avatar
 
Trade: GC/ Interior & Exterior Remodeling
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bergen County, NJ
Posts: 10,847
Rewards Points: 11,320

Re: Ice Dam HELP


Patrick---When you guys do siding do you close the gap between the fascia boards holding the gutter and the roof deck? I always bend a Z that acts like a gasket with the roof ice shield and the aluminum fascia. Another thing that I have done in the past that maybe I shouldn't have was open up too much of the eaves. This heat loss causes the ice damming. I was always told the more ventilation for the roof the better now I know better. Honestly even if I opened too much eaves I still never got any call backs using that method above.
One last thing......did you use spike and ferrules for your gutters? They get loose and water leaks in.
Tom M is online now  
Old 12-24-2008, 12:50 PM   #7
Pro
 
Tom Struble's Avatar
 
Trade: siding
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: west milford n.j.
Posts: 17,271
Rewards Points: 20

Re: Ice Dam HELP


toms right about the gap between the gutter and roof not sure about the ventilation part tho more likely missing insulation or air sealing problem in the attic jmo usually bay windows get the worst
Tom Struble is offline  
Old 12-24-2008, 01:03 PM   #8
Pro
 
Ed the Roofer's Avatar
 
Trade: Roofing Contractor
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: NW Suburbs of Chicago
Posts: 7,182
Rewards Points: 2,062

Re: Ice Dam HELP


It is a Great Opportunity for you to cash in.

Ice Damming is an Insurable Event per the standard Home Owners HO-3 or HO-4 Policy lingo, as per an "Act Of God" or Act Of Nature".

Bring along the documentation suggested previously, as I am very familiar with the University of Massachusetts piece of literature and it conveys the premise with well documented captions as examples.

Get them to sign a contract with you immediately for you to provide a remediation service.

The duty is on THEN, per their insurance policy to mitigate any additional damages as quickly as they are made aware of the situation.

Use a Snow Rake, available from the Big Box stores and Roofing Supply Houses,m such as ABC Supply.

Use Calcium Chloride or Magnesium Chloride to open up channels in the frozen ice.

TIP: You can buy The 2 products in a flake form, from a chemical supply facility, such as those that supply lawn and garden contractors and mix it with water and dispense it on the roof in a liquid form for better saturation through a back-pack sprayer with a hand pump for better pressure.

There is a massive list of alternative products and suppliers from a thread last year about this topic.

Another liquid that already comes in soluble form, is "Ice Ban".

You should be able to charge for an emergency service call minimum rate, plus the time plus materials of the chemical applications. (Salt; Sodium Chloride, is only to be used as a last resort, since it can harm the aluminum and shingles and ground vegetation)

Do a Search on this site with my User Name for Posts, not Threads started, for Ice Ban to find that other thread.

Also, due to the interior leakage, get yourself set up with a drywall contractor and supply those repairs and painting and wall and ceiling insulation replacement as well. Carpet drying will also probably be required and a dehumidifier to pull out the soaked in moisture, using a commercial grade unit and a blower.

Ed
Ed the Roofer is offline  
Old 12-24-2008, 01:35 PM   #9
I like Green things
 
WarnerConstInc.'s Avatar
 
Trade: Architectural Mill Work
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: In a van, down by the river. Auburn, IN
Posts: 22,943
Rewards Points: 5,838

Re: Ice Dam HELP


I dont have a problem with my new kitchen, but this did get me motivated to climb up on the roof and clean some snow and ice off, christ there was 4" of ice right at the eave.
WarnerConstInc. is offline  
Old 12-24-2008, 01:50 PM   #10
Pro
 
mics_54's Avatar
 
Trade: contractor
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,067
Rewards Points: 500

Re: Ice Dam HELP


Many times water from ice dams will first be noticed on the floor on exterior walls because of the plastic 6 mil vapor barrier on cielings and walls. Ice dams are of course cause by inadiquate cieling insulation for the current weather events. Snow and rain are melted or kept from freezing on the roof until it runs down to the eves where the roof is colder where the water freezes and builds the dam. Water then is stopped from running off the roof and wicks its way bck up under the shingles and through any opening or nail holes into the attic, soaking insulation and making insulation even less effective. Northern climate codes now require a biotumin liner under the shingles at the eaves begining above the walls upward 3 feet. Trusses and roof framing is built to allow sufficient space to allow adiquate insulation and attic spaces are vented to keep the roofs cold.
mics_54 is offline  
Old 12-24-2008, 03:06 PM   #11
Pro
 
Ed the Roofer's Avatar
 
Trade: Roofing Contractor
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: NW Suburbs of Chicago
Posts: 7,182
Rewards Points: 2,062

Re: Ice Dam HELP


Here are the links from the other thread that I was speaking about.


http://www.saltinstitute.org/kirchner-1.html

http://www.snomelt.com/

http://www.morgro.com/deepthaw_compare.htm

http://www.meltsnow.com/msds-ice-ban.htm this is the one I was talking about in a laer post. Ice Ban.

http://www.unique-idea.com/BGS-1.htm this one is readily available, called Bare Ground, available from this outlet, directly linked from Bare Grounds home page store link.

http://www.iceviper.com/



Also, here are the links to those 2 complete threads:

https://www.contractortalk.com/f15/ice-dam-31127/

https://www.contractortalk.com/f15/de...e-damns-31030/

Don't forget about hot water starting from the bottom of the ice dam and working your way up to the top until it creates a gap to the pooled up water and a powered steam cleaner also.

Ed
Ed the Roofer is offline  
Old 12-24-2008, 06:30 PM   #12
Pro
 
Tom Struble's Avatar
 
Trade: siding
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: west milford n.j.
Posts: 17,271
Rewards Points: 20

Re: Ice Dam HELP


maybe rent a steam genny for the day
Tom Struble is offline  
Old 12-24-2008, 10:55 PM   #13
Pro
 
buckeyeso2's Avatar
 
Trade: carpentry
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: ohio
Posts: 106
Rewards Points: 75

Re: Ice Dam HELP


tom m -- more ventilation is better!!!
buckeyeso2 is offline  
Old 12-24-2008, 11:00 PM   #14
Pro
 
buckeyeso2's Avatar
 
Trade: carpentry
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: ohio
Posts: 106
Rewards Points: 75

Re: Ice Dam HELP


Quote:
Originally Posted by tom m View Post
Patrick---When you guys do siding do you close the gap between the fascia boards holding the gutter and the roof deck? I always bend a Z that acts like a gasket with the roof ice shield and the aluminum fascia. Another thing that I have done in the past that maybe I shouldn't have was open up too much of the eaves. This heat loss causes the ice damming. I was always told the more ventilation for the roof the better now I know better. Honestly even if I opened too much eaves I still never got any call backs using that method above.
One last thing......did you use spike and ferrules for your gutters? They get loose and water leaks in.
I don't think I agree with your heat loss theory. You are right in saying that ice damming comes from heat loss, but soffit ventilation does not have anything to do with this. The attic is still going to be the same temperature, even with less vented soffit!!
buckeyeso2 is offline  
Old 12-25-2008, 01:49 AM   #15
Member
 
Roofboy's Avatar
 
Trade: Roofer
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Alaska
Posts: 61
Rewards Points: 75

Re: Ice Dam HELP


Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyeso2 View Post
I don't think I agree with your heat loss theory. You are right in saying that ice damming comes from heat loss, but soffit ventilation does not have anything to do with this. The attic is still going to be the same temperature, even with less vented soffit!!
Hello,

Ice dams ARE caused by heat loss. If you will read the links that Ed the Roofer gave and search this site for Ventilation issues than you will see that there have been numerous studies on this.


Keith
Roofboy is offline  
Old 12-25-2008, 08:31 AM   #16
 
Burby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 359
Rewards Points: 250

Re: Ice Dam HELP


after a fresh snow has finished, for decades, that has been the easiest way for any homeowner to see how well their home is insulated and or problem areas because of spots with no snow at all while all other areas have the snow still sitting there. And especially if no snow is on the first 3 to 4 feet of the roof from the soffit area upwards.
So many products are now on the market because of wall/roof line is typically the weakest area. Because of trying to prevent insulation blocking the venting from the soffits, it is often the place of least insullation, therefore contributing if not the entire cause for ice back ups.

Even before all these countless studies have been conducted as well as all the info online and or at any roofing supply that is availible to anyone who seeks it. Ice dams as well as the cause is common knowledge.
Homeowners just prefer to have someone to point a finger at so the problem is no longer theirs. (in their eyes)

With the present day info on ice dams/back ups, there should not be a cause for a H/O to call one who performed work on their home, with the exception of if one had been hired for the purpose of repairing the problem of heat loss and or ice dams/back ups. By correcting the heat loss and or adding precautions on the roof's edge such as 3 or more feet of ice & water sheild under the shingles, Ice & snow panels, roof heat tapes, ect.
And if still has a problem with ice dams/back ups, contacting them to return to evaluate the problem.

Not make a call to blame the siders, roofers, window installers, ect, ect..
Burby is offline  
Old 12-25-2008, 08:36 AM   #17
 
Burby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 359
Rewards Points: 250

Re: Ice Dam HELP


No problem with ice anything here with exception to ice in a drink glass, it is going to be 74 degrees here today. It is already so warm out at 8:30 am. I will probably have to head out for a bike ride soon..

I do feel for all those who have to travel today in stormy or wintery conditions on the roads or airports. Be careful & get to your destination safe. For you & those that care for you.
Burby is offline  
Old 12-25-2008, 03:34 PM   #18
Pro
 
Patrick's Avatar
 
Trade: Siding, Windows, Seamless Gutters, Metal Roofing
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,196
Rewards Points: 2,364

Re: Ice Dam HELP


Quote:
Originally Posted by tom m View Post
Patrick---When you guys do siding do you close the gap between the fascia boards holding the gutter and the roof deck?

Nope, not my problem if its not our roof. If it is a our roof there is 8" drip edge up there so its a non issue


One last thing......did you use spike and ferrules for your gutters? They get loose and water leaks in.
I wasn't aware people till use spike and ferrules we use hidden hangers with a diagonal lag screw

The real problem with this customer is we were called by them last spring cause they had water around the windows. We looked at their old siding and windows, and there was NO flashing or window tape, and there were gaps everywhere. We took off some of their old siding and water poured out. So we resided that one wall. She is now pissed because she claims the money she paid us for the new siding and flashing etc should have included solving all leaks in her house!
__________________
Originally Posted by Celtic
Like I said...I'm sure you are very good at what you do ~ whatever that is and where ever it happens.
Patrick is offline  
Old 12-25-2008, 10:40 PM   #19
Pro
 
buckeyeso2's Avatar
 
Trade: carpentry
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: ohio
Posts: 106
Rewards Points: 75

Re: Ice Dam HELP


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roofboy View Post
Hello,

Ice dams ARE caused by heat loss. If you will read the links that Ed the Roofer gave and search this site for Ventilation issues than you will see that there have been numerous studies on this.


Keith

I guess I did not make myself clear. The second sentence of my post says exactly what your first sentence says.

My question was --what does soffit ventilation have to do with heat loss?
buckeyeso2 is offline  
Old 12-25-2008, 11:04 PM   #20
Insert title
 
dougchips's Avatar
 
Trade: Doors-Windows-Decks
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: MA&RI
Posts: 4,692
Rewards Points: 2,022

Re: Ice Dam HELP


Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
[B] She is now pissed because she claims the money she paid us for the new siding and flashing etc should have included solving all leaks in her house!
Buy her a book on logic and a crack kills tee shirt, wish her a merry Christmas and move on.

Advertisement

__________________
To get the best replacement windows, or sun rooms contact the replacement windows experts at FHI Vinyl Window Company.
dougchips is offline  


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Join Now... It's Fast and FREE!

I am a professional contractor
I am a DIY Homeowner
Drywall Talk is for
PROFESSIONAL CONTRACTORS ONLY!

At DrywallTalk.com we cater exlusivly to professional contractors who make their living as a contractor. Knowing that many homeowners and DIYers are looking for a community to call home, we've created www.DIYChatroom.com DIY Chatroom is full of helpful advices and perfect for DIY homeowners.

Redirecing in 10 seconds
No Thanks
terms of service

Already Have an Account?