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Help Me Settle An Argument Here...

 
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Old 01-21-2010, 04:08 AM   #1
 
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Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


Hello all,

I have been working on a 150sq+ roof since before the holidays (due to bad weather days and such) I was brought on by a fellow "contractor" who gets all his work from his uncle. I have several items I would like to point out and ask opinions on:

It has always been in my best practice when stepping shingles to go *at least* 7" away from the shingle below.... His steps were 1 1/2 and he said "this is fine" Now, wouldn't this allow water to follow the short-stepped pattern right into a vulnerable point in the roof?

When doing the valleys, I prefer to weave and then do a "no cut valley" If anyone is unfamiliar with this practice, once the one side is weaved up on to the opposing roof, shingles are laid with the reveal facing downward diagonally following the valley, therefore making it unneccessary to chalk a line and cut. Now it has always been my understanding that you run the higher pitch roof on to the lower pitch, to avoid pooling of water and the possibility of water running back into your weaving. This guy said "I looked it up online and you are wrong! You F&#[email protected] up the whole job and I don't want you on it anymore" My questions would be:

  • If this was an experienced contractor, wouldn't he be sure of himself enough to not have to check online?
  • Was he justified in ending our contract early?
  • Should I be docked pay, which is what he is threatening
Additionally, this guy is the type who thinks he is "too good to chalk a line" which in my honest opinion, we were roofing an entire plaza, this is a huge job, don't we want it to look professional? He starts his first courses flush with the drip edge rather than putting a half inch overhang, and does the same with the rakes. These are all sources of leaks, correct? Water wicks back up into the edges and finds its way through one way or another.

I am not proud to say I put my name on this job, and after all the unnecessary berating I had to take, I am starting to even doubt myself. Help out a fellow contractor?
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Old 01-21-2010, 04:57 AM   #2
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


1 1/2'' does not sound correct to me, what kind of shingle are we talking about, why not follow the manufacturers instruction. as far as valleys i do 2 types, run over, run back across, snap line and cut, or open with pan, i dont weave, not saying its wrong, i just dont do it. If the drip edge is offset, meaning it already has an overhang built in, i dont think flush is a problem, but i would leave 3/4'' most times anyway. Job sounds like a clusterf---, i feel bad for the uncle, GMOD

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Old 01-21-2010, 06:59 AM   #3
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


When doing the valleys, I prefer to weave and then do a "no cut valley" If anyone is unfamiliar with this practice, once the one side is weaved up on to the opposing roof, shingles are laid with the reveal facing downward diagonally following the valley, therefore making it unneccessary to chalk a line and cut.

This is what some guys do out here in Chicago on laminates, aka California style valleys. Not sure why it's called that but i think it looks like crap with the pattern of the shingle running vertical with the valley. I am 99% sure this would not be a standard application method. Just another short-cut in my book.
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:00 AM   #4
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


In hindsight, it may have been best asking how he prefers things done since it his job.

If it means getting your money or not you may want to redo your valley to however he wants it done.

Its his job if I understand correctly.
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:02 AM   #5
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


always been in my best practice when stepping shingles to go *at least* 7" away from the shingle below.... His steps were 1 1/2

I just checked this the other day and 3" seems to be the minimum stagger per manufacturer's recommendation on the brands I checked. We typically use 6"-7", but 1/1/2" is not adequate.

you run the higher pitch roof on to the lower pitch

Correct.

then do a "no cut valley"

This may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, but it's allowed on the products we use and we almost always use this method. I hear the argument that it looks funny. Maybe it does standing over it on the roof, but no one but a roofer
will notice it from the ground.

He starts his first courses flush with the drip edge rather than putting a half inch overhang, and does the same with the rakes.

I like to see overhang.

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Old 01-21-2010, 08:21 AM   #6
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


As for the valleys there are 3 acceptable methods. However I really only weave on 3 tabs, I find architecturals too thick generally. Having said that the first 2-3 courses get woven, and the rest gets cut. What you are calling a no cut valley I call a california valley. I generally don't like this practice and prefer not to use it. Some guys say it's better, but I am on the fence so I opt for the closed cut.

You are however correct regarding the pitch and running the higher onto the lower. In other words you shingle the lower section first so that the upper section overlaps the lower section. LOL I have seen many many roofs where it was done backwards and it's always an ice problem here in Chicago.

Overhang is a necessary detailr equired by the manufacturers. Typically I like to see 3/4" but 1" is also acceptable, anything more than 1" is way too much. This is why I am an advocate of chalking your vertical row starter lines as well as at least your first course of shingles. However I have seen guys use their finger tips as a measuring rule with remarkable accuracy.


As far as him terminating the "contract" did you actually have one or did he just call you out and say "Hey bud come work a few days with me."




This thread is not so much about how things are supposed to be done, but how the "boss" wanted them done. It's a lack of training, and not to say that gutterman doesn't know what he's doing, but that gutterman didn't know how the boss wanted it done. There are many ways to skin the cat, so to speak. This is why when ever I hire anyone I show them our training manual which is primarily a collection of pictures showing various details. I tell them i want the finished product to look like that. In addition, anyone who works for me full time must complete the CertainTeed master shingle application certification. It's just a way of getting everyone on the same page. It causes less confusion, and these types of problems rarely occur.
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:26 AM   #7
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


Quote:
Originally Posted by seeyou View Post

He starts his first courses flush with the drip edge rather than putting a half inch overhang, and does the same with the rakes.

I like to see overhang.

If its install according to the FBC there is no need to have a overhang
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:33 AM   #8
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


i can start monday...nothin to high tho Ok Grump
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Last edited by Tom Struble; 08-06-2010 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 01-21-2010, 09:56 AM   #9
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


When I used to do roofing we would step them 5-7" no more no less.As far as the California valley - I disliked doing them (especially with architectural shingles) you are write about the slope. Nice to see someone from our end of the country on here- sorry to hear this happened to you and good luck.
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Old 01-21-2010, 09:59 AM   #10
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


^^^ i've got one of those, only it says wizard on it.

to the OP, sounds like your buddy don't know his a$$ from a hole in the ground. it blows my mind that the instructions are printed on EVERY bundle of shingles, and guys can rip hundreds (or thousands) of bundles open and never take a moment to look at them.

the off-set needs to be 4-6". at an inch and a half, problems are sure to follow, and the entire roof will be "beyond repair", requiring complete T/O.

the "no-cut" valley detail is actually an approved method, although i don't use it. as for which side to run first, sometimes it's a judgement call. the rules are: cut the big side, cut the steep side, and cut the main. but sometimes the steep side is much smaller that the big side. sometimes it gets confusing.

you should always have 1/2" overhang, past the drip. reason is that the overhang breaks the surface tention of the water allowing it to drip into the gutter. if ya run it flush, the water will tend to "hug" the drip edge and run behind the gutter.

you should post a few pics of this job. should be comical.

good luck collecting from this guy. i'd probably try going to the uncle.
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:09 AM   #11
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


Lol @ Tom.

Everyone else has already mentioned all the problems. If I were you, I would not lay another shingle until I got paid. If he doesnt pay you and you are angry enough, call the local representative for the shingle company. Have him come to the job and voice his opinion then let him tell that opinion to the "roofer". From what you have explained, I would bet that roof would not be able to have a warranty on it.
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:36 AM   #12
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


i missed the wizard by 1 question
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:59 AM   #13
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


Quote:
Originally Posted by BamBamm5144 View Post
Lol @ Tom.

Everyone else has already mentioned all the problems. If I were you, I would not lay another shingle until I got paid. If he doesnt pay you and you are angry enough, call the local representative for the shingle company. Have him come to the job and voice his opinion then let him tell that opinion to the "roofer". From what you have explained, I would bet that roof would not be able to have a warranty on it.
BamBAm- he got thrown off the job.
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Old 01-21-2010, 11:02 AM   #14
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


I didnt see that. I saw where he said the guy told him he didnt want him on the job anymore but that doesnt mean he kicked him off the job.
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Old 01-21-2010, 11:17 AM   #15
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


Quote:
Originally Posted by qualify.com View Post
If its install according to the FBC there is no need to have a overhang
Roofer Dan says: "reason is that the overhang breaks the surface tention of the water allowing it to drip into the gutter. if ya run it flush, the water will tend to "hug" the drip edge and run behind the gutter."
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Old 01-21-2010, 11:42 AM   #16
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


Sounds like 150+ squares of whoops.

Which arguement do you want settled? There sounds like many...

Regardless of everything else if there is 1 1/2" offset the roof is probably toast.

Regardless of everything else if there is no overhang the roof is probably toast.

I would suspect the California valley is a contributing factor in the offset issue. Oftentimes the shortest cut is the longest road hey.

It sounds to me like nobody on that roof actually knows what they are doing, and therefore maybe nobody will get paid. The reason I say this is because if you don't know how to shingle, and are trying to come off as you do, chances are you do not know the legalities behind it either. If I were you, I would not go any further until the problems on the roof are rectified, and issues of payment are sorted out.

Get informed and use good common sense. The bulk of information can be found in manuals online. Bundle wrappers are also an amazing source of factual information. Of course, an actual roofer or manufacturer representative is probably best.

However, not all knowledge bases' are complete, so if all else fails...be the water .
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Old 01-21-2010, 11:43 AM   #17
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


Quote:
Originally Posted by qualify.com View Post
If its install according to the FBC there is no need to have a overhang
Wow. That there is a scary bit of information. How does that qualify, qualify?
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Old 01-21-2010, 12:08 PM   #18
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


You're better off out of there, you have a clue, he doesn't. Hard to work for people like that.

How does he wind up with 1-1/2" offset? That seems like it would be difficult to get even with running them out of the valley.
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Old 01-21-2010, 12:14 PM   #19
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoofer View Post
Wow. That there is a scary bit of information. How does that qualify, qualify?
Was referring to the shingles not being applied beyond the drip edge if it is installed with an 8-12 roofing cement along eave valleys and rake and the customary starter course, along Manf exposure, with 6 nails per shingles.
I stand to be corrected, but in my area they will not permit overhang on (Shingles).

All roof Framing should have Overhang i don't think that your eave and rake section (Shingles) need them.
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Old 01-21-2010, 12:17 PM   #20
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Re: Help Me Settle An Argument Here...


Quote:
Originally Posted by seeyou View Post
Roofer Dan says: "reason is that the overhang breaks the surface tention of the water allowing it to drip into the gutter. if ya run it flush, the water will tend to "hug" the drip edge and run behind the gutter."

pages 94,106,115,124,132,134,142, and 151 of the certainteed shingle applicator's manual:

"extend shingles over the rakes and eaves by about 1/2" (13mm) if drip edge is used, or about 3/4" (19mm) if no drip edge is used"

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