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Hand Banging Vs. Gun

 
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Old 03-19-2011, 11:32 PM   #21
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


Its funny how guys will argue over hand nailing speed vs air gunning.
Ive been a roofer since 1976 i started for my pappy in roofing co. then.
it took some time and i was pushed by the faster guys to improve. over the years i hear guys bragging all the time how fast they are some crazy ones i heard were stocking a 4/12 28 square roof in the morning and hand nailing her on by the end of the day ONE man. yadda yadda.... heres what i think MHO.. if your hand nailing and smacking on a square an hour avg. your doing pretty darn good, oh yeah you will find times when your feeling your wheaties and the weather is blessed and you run on 2 square hand nailing. but for the most part 1 sq an hour installed. now air gunning ... if you really push and dont stop constantly for a smoke or coffee or shootin the breeze. you can shoot 3+ sq an hour avg. so to answer the OP .. if my homeowner is goona dictate that he wants hand nail im gonna charge him double cause you know he is goona sit in his lawn chair and watch you the whole time. and also when guys are flying with air guns usually the nails are hanging up and they are not shot on or below the blue line. then your back lifting tabs and resetting the nails and chasing blow offs all winter. just my 2 cents
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Old 03-20-2011, 12:37 AM   #22
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


Quote:
Originally Posted by loneframer View Post
This guy has a good system. Shingles are spread nicely, out of the work area, easy to reach, no lifting to nail.

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.

Anytime I see someone moving that fast with the gun, I always think you are sure to get a nail right under a seam which will usually cause a leak on a low pitch.
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Old 03-20-2011, 08:26 AM   #23
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


what about these morons...... WARNING, bad language if you have kids around. I turned down the volume. but these are guys that give roofers a bad name.

nailing too fast is just asking for nails not going in all the way and they are definitely not hitting the line or the correct area, most of the time they are high and those shingles can blow off later.

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
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Old 03-20-2011, 10:13 AM   #24
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


Quality BEFORE speed, always stressing this with my guys..with gun or hand bangin..
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Old 03-20-2011, 11:06 AM   #25
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


We got rid of the guns and compressors about 5-6 years ago. Too many "nail-pops", nailed too high (or too low), too much pressure, blown through the shingle and on and on. This resulted in call backs and wasted money.

We hand-nail, it is slower. We compensate for that extra time and everyone is happy; the client, the crew and ME.

Certainly, we are not doing 2.5/man hour. It just not as important compared to quality.
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Old 03-24-2011, 03:17 PM   #26
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


Occasionally I get a customer requesting hand nailing, I charge 5.00 more per square. Haven't hand nailed in about five years now, maybe it should be more per square.

Really, if you run the gun properly it shouldn't be that much faster than hand nailing. The problem with gun nailing is everybody wants to be the quickest draw. I gave up being the quickest years ago, still do pretty good though. Make up must of my time in the details, that comes with experience.

No offense to the roofers in the videos on this link but I wasn't taught to roof like that. I know many are and that's probably why the roof repair business is such a growth industry.
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Old 03-29-2011, 04:12 PM   #27
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


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Originally Posted by superseal View Post
You could tell they were "rushing" past their normal pace.
A person can go a little slower and still get more material down.
It's not just about speed, but speed + accurate nail placement and application.
They are good. No doubt about it. They just need some seasoning. Otherwise, well done.

(Still...I'm faster AND better. )
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Old 03-29-2011, 04:19 PM   #28
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


Quote:
Originally Posted by loneframer View Post
This guy has a good system. Shingles are spread nicely, out of the work area, easy to reach, no lifting to nail.

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
Hey LF.

True. But, he could also have his shingles placed "above" the work which IMO is better in that (especially on really hot days) you don't mark up the new work. "If" he has a helper loading him, even better. He can keep producing without tripping over anybody. Not only that, it's easier to "pull" a shingle down a roof into place, than to "lift" it up into place. Gravity gives you a hand and it all adds up at the end of the day.

On my last roof, I managed to bang out a solid 12sq in 2 hours (me shingling) on a freshly ripped/dried in walkable roof with no details. Not because I'm superman, but because I organized the job right and utilized my helper well. I had him loading me up above the work with a coil placed with every bundle. I basically never had to stop. It's amazing how much production 2 men can put out with the right organization.

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Last edited by 2ndGen; 03-29-2011 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 03-29-2011, 04:35 PM   #29
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatchetman View Post
Occasionally I get a customer requesting hand nailing, I charge 5.00 more per square. Haven't hand nailed in about five years now, maybe it should be more per square.

Really, if you run the gun properly it shouldn't be that much faster than hand nailing. The problem with gun nailing is everybody wants to be the quickest draw. I gave up being the quickest years ago, still do pretty good though. Make up must of my time in the details, that comes with experience.

No offense to the roofers in the videos on this link but I wasn't taught to roof like that. I know many are and that's probably why the roof repair business is such a growth industry.
A) Awesome name.

B) Correct. Properly set up equipment and professionalism in the installer will equal a good gun nailed job.

When I was young, dumb and full of (you know), I was went for speed. But, I spent more time going back and fixing my mistakes, so almost counter-intuitively, I forced myself to LEARN how to nail as straight (not arched, not too low, not to high) with a gun as I nailed with my hatchet.

A "real" craftsman is going to be good no matter what he uses.
Surprisingly, it didn't take me much time to learn out to use a gun right
(anybody can plug in an air-hose, load a coil in a clip and bang away).
It humbled me. And, I got good at it.

Once a Roofer masters the application principles, speed and production are natural results.
Plus, some good tunes on the radio help a lot as well.
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Last edited by 2ndGen; 03-29-2011 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 03-29-2011, 04:36 PM   #30
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


Quote:
Originally Posted by kage View Post
Quality BEFORE speed, always stressing this with my guys..with gun or hand bangin..
Exactly.
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Old 03-29-2011, 04:43 PM   #31
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


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Originally Posted by 2ndGen View Post
Hey LF.

True. But, he could also have his shingles placed "above" the work which IMO is better in that (especially on really hot days) you don't mark up the new work.
I shingle pretty much how this guy does, and on hot days shingles are gum line facing up.
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Old 03-29-2011, 07:25 PM   #32
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


You still hand nail? Do you also ride a horse to work every day? I laugh when I hear that there are "craftsmen" still toiling away with such a dated technique. I don't care how fast you are at it, someone installing the same quality of work can do it at least twice as fast witha gun. I bet people who hand nail (on average) only put 4 nails per shingle b/c of time restraint.

That being said, if your such a conscientious craftsman that you "must" hand nail for quality, why aren't you just learning to use a gun in a quality manner? ( and don't tell me yada this they over nail, and yada that they under nail,) If you take 2 seconds with it to learn how to set it up properly they work perfectly fine.
Don't fight the technology, it is only there to make your life easier.
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Old 03-29-2011, 07:29 PM   #33
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason-F View Post
You still hand nail? Do you also ride a horse to work every day? I laugh when I hear that there are "craftsmen" still toiling away with such a dated technique. I don't care how fast you are at it, someone installing the same quality of work can do it at least twice as fast witha gun. I bet people who hand nail (on average) only put 4 nails per shingle b/c of time restraint.

That being said, if your such a conscientious craftsman that you "must" hand nail for quality, why aren't you just learning to use a gun in a quality manner? ( and don't tell me yada this they over nail, and yada that they under nail,) If you take 2 seconds with it to learn how to set it up properly they work perfectly fine.
Don't fight the technology, it is only there to make your life easier.
Agreed, BUT handnailing will always be superior to using guns.
With handnailing, there are far less opportunities to misnail.

Not only that, if you hit a void with a hatchet (hammer for you
young whippersnappers! ), you can immediately feel it.
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Old 03-31-2011, 06:04 AM   #34
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


Quote:
Originally Posted by ApgarNJ View Post
what about these morons...... WARNING, bad language if you have kids around. I turned down the volume. but these are guys that give roofers a bad name.

nailing too fast is just asking for nails not going in all the way and they are definitely not hitting the line or the correct area, most of the time they are high and those shingles can blow off later.

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.

Wow!!!!!!K ids
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Old 03-31-2011, 07:04 AM   #35
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason-F View Post
You still hand nail? Do you also ride a horse to work every day? I laugh when I hear that there are "craftsmen" still toiling away with such a dated technique. I don't care how fast you are at it, someone installing the same quality of work can do it at least twice as fast witha gun. I bet people who hand nail (on average) only put 4 nails per shingle b/c of time restraint.

That being said, if your such a conscientious craftsman that you "must" hand nail for quality, why aren't you just learning to use a gun in a quality manner? ( and don't tell me yada this they over nail, and yada that they under nail,) If you take 2 seconds with it to learn how to set it up properly they work perfectly fine.
Don't fight the technology, it is only there to make your life easier.
It is really not a matter of fighting the technology. It is a matter of human nature. People using a gun are more apt to get tired after several hours, start missing their "lines" and potentially having problems as a result.

Clearly your'e happy with a gun and I'm happy with a hatchet. It would appear it works for both of us.
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Old 03-31-2011, 08:22 AM   #36
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason-F View Post
You still hand nail? Do you also ride a horse to work every day? I laugh when I hear that there are "craftsmen" still toiling away with such a dated technique. I don't care how fast you are at it, someone installing the same quality of work can do it at least twice as fast witha gun. I bet people who hand nail (on average) only put 4 nails per shingle b/c of time restraint.

That being said, if your such a conscientious craftsman that you "must" hand nail for quality, why aren't you just learning to use a gun in a quality manner? ( and don't tell me yada this they over nail, and yada that they under nail,) If you take 2 seconds with it to learn how to set it up properly they work perfectly fine.
Don't fight the technology, it is only there to make your life easier.
Why you say this? is it because you cant handnail? too hard on your hands? too young to have learned hand bangin? or is it your way only thats best?
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Old 03-31-2011, 11:56 AM   #37
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


Quote:
Originally Posted by ApgarNJ View Post
what about these morons...... WARNING, bad language if you have kids around. I turned down the volume. but these are guys that give roofers a bad name.

nailing too fast is just asking for nails not going in all the way and they are definitely not hitting the line or the correct area, most of the time they are high and those shingles can blow off later.

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
Once again another how not to roof on you tube. It was titled wrong too, I didnt find him all that fast. Was to worried about looking cool then what he was working on. I think everyone of them should be slapped for calling them selfs a roofer. If that was my job they all would have been with out work following that.
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Old 03-31-2011, 08:00 PM   #38
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


I just don't see Hand Nailing as a viable way to do roofs in the 21 Century. I also insist the guys uses cordless drills when installing metal roofing screws.

In the 21 century I just plain don't see the benefit. I know you can't charge the amount needed to compensate for the extra install time req to do it by hand. So they way I see it you would be leaving money on the table to do it that way. Each to their own though.
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Old 03-31-2011, 08:43 PM   #39
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


I handnailed for many years.
If we are talking about placing the nail in the location required by the manufacturer and setting them straight with the heads flush onto the shingle. Guns realy dont have much of advantage other then less fatigue.

Most times it seems like many are comparing just putting nails in and the fastest way to do it.
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Old 03-31-2011, 11:26 PM   #40
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Re: Hand Banging Vs. Gun


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I handnailed for many years.
If we are talking about placing the nail in the location required by the manufacturer and setting them straight with the heads flush onto the shingle. Guns realy dont have much of advantage other then less fatigue.

Most times it seems like many are comparing just putting nails in and the fastest way to do it.

It took me about a week to get used to sinking nails "properly" with practice.
Then, it took me months to get "fast" AND "good" at it. It had it's learning curve.
It was time consuming, but once I got it, I became just as professional an installer as I was with my hatchet.
I made a concerted effort to "learn" how to use the gun and to get good at it so that I wouldn't have to worry
about doing it wrong. I actually cared about what I was doing.

Like my old man used to tell me over and over again, "The tool doesn't make the man."

A good craftsman is going to use a tool properly. Like I do.
I've missed hitting a nail square with my hatchet as well.
The main thing is that I (of course) get tired faster with "swinging" as opposed to using a nailer.

Roofing Guns are just another evolution of the industry.
To be brutally honest, before I die, I expect to see shingles as we see them today
begin to be phased out with some sort of plastic or synthetic material taking it's place.
And there'll be a newer more efficient way to install that.

For real guns, they say "guns don't kill people...people kill people".
Well, for roofing guns; "guns don't cause improper installation...poor craftsmanship does."

BUT! I have the greatest respect & appreciation (again) for the
man who still swings a hatchet (hammers weren't made for roofs).


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